Hutaree Broadcast

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rdale

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They were in the open on I-EVENT34 during the second phase of the event too, but again nothing really worthwhile was being discussed. I doubt WashCo Sheriff was taking a lead in this, so it was probably just traffic control locations.
 

Hooligan

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FBI was mostly, but not completely, encrypted. Some of the verbiage on non-secure circuits, brief as it may have been, pretty much gave-away the fact that some high-profile multi-site raids involving HRT & Division-level SWAT teams were about to take place.

Thankfully, the militias & most other bad-guys are dumber than the FBI is, but the FBI's OPSEC stupidity is why they need to use a full-time COMSEC procedures like radio channels strapped for encryption-only. It doesn't mitigate all the communications intelligence threat, but it protects more pieces of the puzzle.
 

BT202

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Another Point for Open Sky

Hopefully this doesn't fuel the fire for encryption for the Washtenaw Co. area.
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Go ahead and flame me, (that seems to be the norm for dissenting beliefs in these forums) but don't be surprised if this exact thing happens.

I'm sorry, but we are living in an age when the criminals are using the same technology that law enforcement is using. Not long ago, a local police surveillance crew took down a group of B&E'ers (burglars). What did they have in their car? A Radio Shack scanner capable of conventional and P25 scanning. Great.

We are also living in the age of terrorism (unless you haven't been watching the news for the last 10 years). Open police and fire communications are an invitation to terrorists to exploit those systems. Forget the foreign terrorists, we now have to worry about these homegrown whack-jobs. Given the Hutaree's rather elaborate plan to kill so many law enforcement officers, it's impossible to conceive that they WOULDN'T be monitoring open police radio communications.

The fact that scanner enthusiasts have been able to monitor public safety radio communications since their inception is a fluke. The hobby was made possible because public safety used a rather low-tech approach to meet their communications requirements, and it has worked well for many years. However, technology has evolved. Technology now makes possible more efficient use of finite resources (such as the radio spectrum). Being able to scan public safety was never, and is not, any kind of 'right' anymore than there's a 'right' to monitor operations by the CIA, NSA, or our military satellites.

Yes, (thank The Lord), the police in this country ARE accountable to the people. That having been said, that doesn't mean law enforcement has to serve its officers up on a silver platter for the bad guys. Police departments using encrypted or non-scannable systems (Open Sky, for example), does not impinge on the rights or freedom of the public. It does not make the police any less accountable to the public. If anyone in the public wants to know what communications were associated with a given event, then, by all means, please file a Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA). However, the rights under F.O.I.A. do not guarantee real-time delivery of the information.

No, there isn't a conspiracy keeping the public from hearing what the police are doing. We aren't secretly communicating New World Order plans to our operatives, nor are we coordinating the invasion of the UFO's. Let's leave that crap for the Loose Change and tin foil hat people, shall we? Several years ago, Oakland County accepted bids for a new county-wide radio system. Only M/A Com said they could deliver a 4-slot TDMA system. The only radical thing about this project was the end result: Everyone in the county can communicate with each other (and Warren, and MSP, and soon, Detroit and Macomb County). Wild, I know, but there you have it. Yes, it took several years, but they have delivered. Further, as M/A Com Harris went through the trouble of designing a new system, it belongs to them, thus making it a proprietary system. If they choose to not sell the technology to scanner manufacturers, so be it. Unfortunately, it seems to be the norm in our society that some people think they are entitled to the property (tangible and intangible) of others. This includes the algorithm for a proprietary radio system. Oh, well. Don't know what to tell you.

Gentlemen, life is about change. Society changes. Technology changes. The communications requirements of public safety changes. Yes, even hobbies must undergo change or extinction.


... Let the flaming begin. It still doesn't change any of the facts I have stated.
 

rdale

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I think the point is - this incident isn't going to make WashCo spend boatloads of money on encryption. They know their open comms are open, and if they are going to encrypt - it's not going to be just because of this event.
 

radioman2001

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Well all I can say the thank goodness, opensky failed. If you don't want to know whats going in your neck of the woods that's your choice, don't make it out that the people who want to know are all some kind of nuts. Do away with scanners, and the criminal will find another way, with Nexthell and cellphones and Twitter they very easily could set up counter ops to deal with the Police.Been done in Philadelphia. All they have to do is have someone follow the patrol car or cars assigned to that area and then when they head in the direction of their crime let their cohorts know by cellphone.
For an instance, you should look up the MDT conversations that took place when Rodney King was beat up. The arrogance of the officers is sickening. I am not suggesting that the majority of officers are that way, but it breeds an attitude that no one is listening, so I can do whatever I want without consequence.
You can not use FOIA if you don't know it happened. They, meaning the government can deny an incident happened, and then will refuse the FOIA request based on that reasoning.
To be perfectly clear, I am not suggesting that all comms be in the clear. Tactical, raids etc need to have the element of surprise, so the need to be encrypted or on a secure system. Day to day operations should be monitorable by the public for 2 reasons. One to assist the Police with our eyes and ears, which they want. The second reason is even more to do with the public's safety. If I know there is a bank robbery or hostage situation, I will stay well clear of that area unti l it's safe again.
 

gpp10x

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Just my 2 cents but its not the scanners that will lead to encryption but the ability to broadcast it over the web to the computers & smartphones. Undercover surveillance, drug stings, etc should be done on encrypted channels for officer safety in the event the bad guys are using something they can listen in on but I doubt most criminals are going to take the time to use scanners during the commission of a crime unless of course they steal one.

"Everyone in the county can communicate with each other (and Warren, and MSP, and soon, Detroit and Macomb County)."

Yeah, its called Interoperability. No flame intended, just pointing out that fact. And you do realize O/S was originally developed for FedEx.
 
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rdale

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Just my 2 cents but its not the scanners that will lead to encryption but the ability to broadcast it over the web to the computers & smartphones.
Given the delays involved with such streaming (a minute+) and the fact that the end user has no control over what channel(s) he is hearing, that really doesn't provide much value for the "criminal element."

If a criminal is going to listen in on the cops, it won't be on his iPhone.
 

gpp10x

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Given the delays involved with such streaming (a minute+) and the fact that the end user has no control over what channel(s) he is hearing, that really doesn't provide much value for the "criminal element."

If a criminal is going to listen in on the cops, it won't be on his iPhone.
I understand that but a number of people get upset over the possibilities of encryption and to me internet feeds and smart phones may just add to the reasons for some depts to want to go encrypted. I'd like to think a responsible feed owner isn't going to broadcast unencrypted surveillance traffic over their feed but I guess the Hutaree mess may have proved me wrong. And I'll save everybody the trouble of telling me the WCSD broadcasts were over regular dispatch tg's.
 

rdale

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WashCo sheriff didn't do any surveillance, so this doesn't compare. They handled traffic to keep people out of the area, they weren't watching the house in question. Feds handled all of that.
 

Hooligan

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For an instance, you should look up the MDT conversations that took place when Rodney King was beat up. The arrogance of the officers is sickening. I am not suggesting that the majority of officers are that way, but it breeds an attitude that no one is listening, so I can do whatever I want without consequence.
YOU are the one that should "look up" how the "gorillas in the mist" MDT comment (which IMHO was probably a pretty damn accurate observation, though not proper LAPD radio/MDT teminology or use) was detected & exposed after Rodney "Can't we all just get along?" King resisted arrest. Checks & balances are there.


Back to that Hutaree video someone posted, look at the size of the scrawny little runt's bedroom. Doesn't look like the master bedroom of a house -- he probably still lives at home with momma. Also, if he were really a bad-ass & wants to be promoted to anything above Private in the militia, he wouldn't have been loading his firearms after being put on "alert," they already would have been locked & loaded.

Poser!


I worked with LE around X years ago when Mark 'Cornhole' Koernke & his merry band of 'Michigan Militia' miscreants first started clucking. Our discrete actions were taken as a result of a crime committed, charges filed, and their threatened violent/illegal actions, not just for the heck of it. I watched them, I listened in on some of their 'private' conversations (Cornhole's house out around Dexter was code-named "Beachhouse"), etc. These guys were MORONS! Yes, they had firearms & those are always taken serously, but if things got hot, most of them would have crapped their pants & run home to momma. Well, maybe not, since some of them were pretty elderly or otherwise out of shape... Anyway, the only thing that was really scary about them was that they were clearly very gullible idiots with access to firearms (& police scanners). What attracted them to the militia stuff was the opportunity to run around & play GI Joe. Just like a lot of the suicide bombers & other terrorists overseas, they're stupid people desperate to have some sort of cause to make them feel important, motivated, & finally do something with their life, so someone comes along -- be it Cornhole Koernke, Adolf Hitler, Hootie the Hutaree honcho, Usama bin Laden, or David Koresh, & they whip up the paranoia in these idiots & harm people, or with these militia mutts, they're dumb enough to start Open Season on LEOs because they've misinterpreted some action and/or their line of communication results in the message being fouled & are under the belief that the New World Order martial law has begun.

Note: I don't know much about the Hutaree specifically. Obviously the FBI was concerned enough about their capabilities to bring in HRT & Field Division SWAT assets, & as I said in my prior response, these so-called elite FBI assets made COMSEC errors which could have resulted in OPSEC vulnerabilities so I'm not suggesting they're collectively the brightest lot, either.


Happy April 19th...
 

gpp10x

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WashCo sheriff didn't do any surveillance, so this doesn't compare. They handled traffic to keep people out of the area, they weren't watching the house in question. Feds handled all of that.
Yes I realize that. I've read all the postings on this topic. And let me add that I'm pretty sure internet feeds & smartphones are the least of law enforcements worries or concerns but some politician somewhere will grab onto it to make it an issue.
 
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rdale

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Yes I realize that. I've read all the postings on this topic. And let me add that I'm pretty sure internet feeds & smartphones are the least of law enforcements worries or concerns but some politician somewhere will grab onto it to make it an issue.
You're right - but at least in this state we're safe since whole system encryption requires something we don't have here... $$$...
 
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