I need someone to point me to a resource

Status
Not open for further replies.

KB2GOM

Active Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
705
Location
Rensselaer County New York
I run the Commuter Assistance Network -- Commuter Assistance Net -- on two meters on workday mornings in the Capital District of New York State.

The other day it occurred to me that, if there were a widespread problem that wiped out electricity, cell phones, and internet -- it would be extremely useful to have a VHF or UHF network that could rapidly share digital info over the airwaves . . . health and welfare info, for example . . . or the need for a particular kind of help at a specific location. The transfer of digital data would help to reduce transcription errors that occur with voice-to-voice comms.

A technology that could piggyback on existing repeaters (those that have backup power) would be great, and it would be terrific if it avoids brand-specific proprietary protocols.

Problem is . . . where would I begin to look for such a thing? (And let me emphasize, I am not interested in any solution that requires the internet to work.)

Cheers, Jock
 

FKimble

Member
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
572
Location
Newnan, GA
Cell towers will be working long after UHF/VHF "ham" repeaters go down. Sure some are housed where there is backup power so they will still be on the air. And how many folks are gonna run out and buy new HTs or Mobiles with this new technology. Sorry to be a wet blanket on your idea. But hey ideas like this are what kick-off new things!

Frank
 

KB2GOM

Active Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
705
Location
Rensselaer County New York
Frank,

I get conflicting reports about the cell towers. Some professionals in the industry tell me that battery backup will last a few hours; some tell me towers have been "hardened" after failing during hurricanes.

And, in my area, some of the ham repeater setups are extremely robust.

I was hoping that there is a solution that does not require new HTs and mobiles . . . but thanks for your comments!
 

nd5y

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
11,824
Location
Wichita Falls, TX
The other day it occurred to me that, if there were a widespread problem that wiped out electricity, cell phones, and internet -- it would be extremely useful to have a VHF or UHF network that could rapidly share digital info over the airwaves . . . health and welfare info, for example . . . or the need for a particular kind of help at a specific location. The transfer of digital data would help to reduce transcription errors that occur with voice-to-voice comms.
Without electricity and internet it wouldn't work.
A technology that could piggyback on existing repeaters
Not possible without disrupting voice traffic. How are repeaters supposed to talk to eachother?
Where would I begin to look for such a thing?
AX.25 Packet Radio in 1985. It was on 145.01 MHz in most areas.
HF digital modes now.
Still no good if there is no electricity.
 

vagrant

ker-muhj-uhn
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Nov 19, 2005
Messages
3,446
Location
California
Perhaps use PSK, RTTY, or Olivia via simplex to pass traffic. Cellular service slots will be bombarded with people making phone calls to ”talk”. With that in mind, repeaters will be used for voice as well. There is no reason to dominate a repeater with data when many conversations can be had via simplex using low power with one of the digital modes noted.
 

nd5y

Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
11,824
Location
Wichita Falls, TX
Any of the digital modes commonly used on HF SSB today that only send and receive audio tones through a PTT/audio interface to the radio will also work on VHF/UHF FM. If the users are all close enough to hear eachother and have strong signals there would be no problem. Just like how packet radio was back in the 1980-1990s.

Such modes would also work through a normal FM repeater as long as all the users had strong signals into the repeater and the repeater was dedicated to digital use or at least other users in the area were told to stay off of it when it was used for digital operations. At one time 146.70/146.10 was the unofficial RTTY repeater pair that was used in some areas.
 

AK9R

Lead Wiki Manager and almost an Awesome Moderator
Super Moderator
Joined
Jul 18, 2004
Messages
10,072
Location
Central Indiana
Some ARES groups routinely exercise using one of the sound card data modes in fldigi over local FM repeaters.
 

hill

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,786
Location
Middle River, MD
DMR can pass short text messages, but it isn't allowed on many repeaters. Maybe it would fly in an emergency.
 

MUTNAV

Active Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 27, 2018
Messages
1,297
Winlink. Read this before commenting / replying (and it is NOT dependent on the Internet) -
Winlink Global Radio Email
No thanks... No need to read it, definitely not needed before commenting, lots of better solutions (if actually needed) are available.

I was thinking of something more along the line of an internet backbone using wi-fi over longer distances.

It does need electricity, but frankly wanting something that would work without electricity, cell phones, and internet is a bit of a stretch.... I think aiming for a basic license free system, and work on electricity as a separate issue, is a more practical approach.

Thanks
Joel
 

KB2GOM

Active Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2020
Messages
705
Location
Rensselaer County New York
No thanks... No need to read it, definitely not needed before commenting, lots of better solutions (if actually needed) are available.

I was thinking of something more along the line of an internet backbone using wi-fi over longer distances.

It does need electricity, but frankly wanting something that would work without electricity, cell phones, and internet is a bit of a stretch.... I think aiming for a basic license free system, and work on electricity as a separate issue, is a more practical approach.

Thanks
Joel

Lots of hams have emergency power; that's the presumption.
 

popnokick

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
2,878
Location
Northeast PA
For license-free, VHF/UHF operation (via FRS, GMRS, or MURS) this may be more appropriate.... but not legal in all countries and modes of operation -
Ribbit
Since reading is apparently not a popular option here on RR: Winlink's original design was to provide global radio email without the need for an Internet connection, and is widely used by vessels at sea that are well out of range of any shore station, and do not have satellite equipment. In non-Part 97 use it can be fully encrypted, hence its popularity with SHARES agencies and organizations. And it obviously does not require connection to a utility-company power source, instead using batteries, the vessel's power source, or other emergency power such as is found at land-based stations.
 
Last edited:

MUTNAV

Active Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 27, 2018
Messages
1,297
I would be looking at a raspberry-pi, wi-fi arrangement if its strictly an internet substitute you're concerned about... ... A lot also depends on who you want to communicate with...and what they have.

DSTARS or APRS might be useful if you just want V/UHF digital only communications with other hams to spread information without errors introduced by voices repeating information.

There kind of already are emergency arrangements/services for this type of thing, as mentioned by AK9R, if they were to feed info to a local AM/FM broadcaster for general public consumption, that might be A way to go.

Can you elaborate more on what you want to do?

Thanks
Joel
 

jeepsandradios

Member
Feed Provider
Joined
Jul 29, 2012
Messages
2,279
Location
East of the Mississippi
Personally I would leverage what's out there with APRS. Many folks only use it to track a vehicle or something else. Lots of cases to use it in other cases. For SAR we have sent lists and small info across APRS. At least some of the APRS network is in the same spots as 2M repeaters so helps. The best part is the frequency is the same everywhere. No need to change frequencies in other areas. The only other think you can do is costly. I doubt any of the hams are going to build a microwave network on HAM frequencies that can support IP speeds. If you dont want to reply on internet or power your limited.
 

krokus

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jun 9, 2006
Messages
6,148
Location
Southeastern Michigan
For connections between fixed sites, mesh networking. Then sites that connect out of area could carry traffic to other areas. (HF packet, or satty packet, to avoid the proprietary issue of Winlink.)
 

ladn

Explorer of the Frequency Spectrum
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
1,479
Location
Southern California and sometimes Owens Valley
DMR can pass short text messages, but it isn't allowed on many repeaters. Maybe it would fly in an emergency.
Since DMR uses two time slots, one TS could be reserved for voice and the other for "data". All this is predicated on the DMR repeater surviving and having adequate power and having a user base that would embrace such a concept.,
 

MUTNAV

Active Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 27, 2018
Messages
1,297
Maybe Wi-FI in a wide area network arrangement, using big-ole parabolas to form the "backbone"


Thanks
Joel
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top