Icom and public safety...

[kayn1n32008]

I am continually amused that radios which are superior to the HT's/Sabers/etc. that were the gold standard not that long ago, are now considered inadequate for "mission-critical" applications.

That’s thanks to the latest buzzword ‘mission critical’

Not long ago(and still happening today all over North America) HT-750/1250/1550’s were THE go to radio for fire, well those departments that were not using Type 2/EDACS, and nobody had an issue doing interior attack with them. Then came along the ‘Mission Critical’ buzz word and now it seems if it’s not an APX XE, it’s not good enough for first responders. It’s too bad Motorola priced them selves out of the realm of realism for volunteer fire fighters.

 

[nd5y]

(and don't use the antenna for a handle or tie it in a knot, either)

or slide the excess length of coiled mic cord over the antenna and wonder why you keep breaking up

 

[MTS2000des]

In my part of the world, dealers push Motorola or Harris until they find a department that's a little more cost conscious and then they almost universally push EJF Kenwood. ICOM is going to have really up their game with better response, service, and price (for equivalent quality & performance) if they have any hope of breaking into this market. That doesn't seem to be happening, yet.

That part. Icom builds a quality radio, I have several iDAS mobiles and portables that I use outside of work, primarily on the ham bands. They have good receivers, good TX audio, and are rock solid reliable. The cloning software is cheap to buy LEGALLY from a dealer, as are cables. They're pretty idiot proof. That being said, to get onto my trunking system, ANY vendor has to be willing to provide a product sample, a system key for our system (with authorization on our letterhead) and at least access to programming software and cable for evaluation purposes. This is standard practice.

If they don't pick up the phone or answer emails, that process isn't gonna happen here and most places. I hear a lot of bashing of MSI, but at the end of the day, they have a product in stock and no problem getting demos. EF Johnson/Kenwood and recently Relm are just as hungry. If Icom wants to eat, they've gotta come to the table.

Even with my admitted bias, I am continually amused that radios which are superior to the HT's/Sabers/etc. that were the gold standard not that long ago, are now considered inadequate for "mission-critical" applications. Today, if the radio can't pound nails into a 2x4, get dragged through the bottom of Lake Michigan, survive getting run over by a tank, and take a bullet through the heart, it's not good enough for Public Safety. I'd suggest that if your life depends on your radio, don't pound nails with it, throw it at a brick wall, or soak it for hours in 10 feet of water.
If your life really depends on it, maybe you should keep it securely in a holder/pouch/carrier that is appropriate to the mission. (and don't use the antenna for a handle or tie it in a knot, either)

I agree. While I concur a radio marketed to public safety as purpose built, and should be designed to withstand 24/7 use in a rugged environment where it may get dropped, scraped against walls/car doors, etc, the notion that something has to stop a bullet and withstand exposure to direct flames for an hour is absurd. Basic care and maintenance of issued equipment is the responsibility of the issuing agency, if that isn't happening, than folks aren't doing their jobs.

 

[12dbsinad]

The new buzzword is "IDLH rated". That means 500 dollar speaker mics (with little baofeng flashlight on them as if battery life isn't short enough) that the cords are rated for a mere 500 degrees. A lot of good that does when the sh#* hits the fan. It's funny how the radio industry makes an issue out of a non issue. You then get the NFPA involved who are the stock holders and you're really in trouble.

 

[jeatock]

For the price of three "professional grade" portable radios my rural ISO4 volunteer department (20 of us) each have a personal take-home portable and there's another 6 on every apparatus plus hot batteries. If a radio has the slightest issue we swap it out on the spot. With two-in-two-out and radios inside the jacket an interior attack failure is not instantly life threatening, and most of those issues are abused mics. Everyone in our area is still on plain old stupid old-fashioned analog, so a mix of F3001's for take homes and F3161's for command and the inside guys works out well. 12 of the 14 departments in my MABAS division do the same thing.

We subscribe to two theories: 1) Every while helmet comes with a non-scan radio for each hand- one for tactical life and safety and another for wide area C&C, and 2) all tactical life and safety incident scene comms are on analog simplex without infrastructure to fail, fold, spindle and mutilate critical traffic, with no off-scene mobiles or base stations to walk on us..

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Plenty of public safety agencies use Icom. A fraction perhaps compared to companies more targeted towards pub safety, but they're out there. And they are right now in the process of breaking into the 800 world as well, P25 trunking, etc.

They've been in the process of doing that for nearly 3 years now. 2 years ago, they were trying to get CAP compliance. Last year...they were trying to get CAP compliance.

Yup. sent emails, no response. Checked with two local dealers, neither had demos. Gave up. I don't have enough hours in the day to go run down a vendor. If they are interested in selling a product, they should get serious enough to make said product available.

I hope they do. Was hoping to see them at IWCE. In the meantime, the local Kenwood/EFJ reps have been very responsive. Those who work to get their product in the end users' hands are the ones who get exposure.

I've had a standing offer with them for 3 years now to test their new F7000's on several trunking systems (all various Astro 25 releases) but they won't ever return calls or emails. I made a similar offer to JVC/Kenwood for some Viking radios as I had access to a multi-band Astro 25 system that they had earned themselves an extremely negative reputation for in OBT land on that system. I no longer have access to that particular system so...sucks for them (I worked for the competition at the time who has since acquired their local dealer).

That being said...I still want to get my hands on the 800 MHz F7000 series radios as I have been trying to figure out what to do to replace and aging Connect Plus system and as long as those radios stay at the price point they are currently at (or get cheaper) P25 is more cost effective than going to a Tier III solution if I piece a system together based on controllers supporting DFSI.

Anyway, I had a F9511 on the bench a few years ago. The local Icom rep had provided it to help us solve a problem with a customer (concrete company) who had been using Motorola PM1500s (110W XTL15000's that are only capable of conventional analog) and had purchased a new truck and didn't want to spend $3,000 on a APX6500. Tried out a Vertex VX-6000...5 dB worse receive sensitivity and the customer had nothing but complaint's regarding the range (simplex dispatch). Put the Icom on the bench...and it didn't even meet it's stated receive sensitivity and at that point just turned around and sent it back. Ended up losing that customer over the fact no one made an acceptable 100W radio anymore.

 

[MTS2000des]

I've had a standing offer with them for 3 years now to test their new F7000's on several trunking systems (all various Astro 25 releases) but they won't ever return calls or emails.

Well, at least it's good to know it's not just me. JVC/KW/EFJ, OTOH, got a VP6000 in my hands right after IWCE 2017. I had it for a month and a half. Plenty of time to test it on our (7.16) release 800MHz LSM. The only thing I observed was some high BER during some encrypted calls. Reported my findings to them and they were very interested. Apparently several firmware releases/DSP releases later, the issue has been resolved. Have an agency with them and they're pretty happy.

 

[jim202]

All of you are missing the critical part of what is going on with the radio shops. There is much more of a mark up on selling Mother M radios than there is on any other brand. So if you were the owner of the shop, what would you do? Sell a radio that you made much less of a markup or sell Motorola where you can bank more cash?

Hope you all see the greed from the radio shop's point of view. Sell one Motorola radio or need to sell say 5 or more of a different brand to make your bottom line fat. The one other important fact is there are fewer shops to service the other brands than there is Motorola.

The other brands will function just the same as Motorola, but you take to the bank much less per radio.

Jim

 

[MTS2000des]

All of you are missing the critical part of what is going on with the radio shops. There is much more of a mark up on selling Mother M radios than there is on any other brand. So if you were the owner of the shop, what would you do? Sell a radio that you made much less of a markup or sell Motorola where you can bank more cash?

Hope you all see the greed from the radio shop's point of view. Sell one Motorola radio or need to sell say 5 or more of a different brand to make your bottom line fat. The one other important fact is there are fewer shops to service the other brands than there is Motorola.

Shops aren't non-profit entities (generally). They're in business to make as much profit as any other business. How is that greed? They do what is in their best interest. It is up to the CUSTOMER to research and verify if vendor B,C,D and E have a comparable product. If vendor (B,C, or D) isn't available to test, CUSTOMER will buy what CUSTOMER knows will work.

The other brands will function just the same as Motorola, but you take to the bank much less per radio.

When it comes to P25 trunking systems, this is not the case. Many times the competitor's subscriber needs specific programming adjustments or even firmware fixes to make them work as the "other guy's" radio. Motorola, for example, has several APX firmware enhancements to address issues when their radios are used on Harris trunking systems.

Without having a product to sample and verify, no reputable public safety trunking system would authorize a subscriber from an untested, unknown vendor's subscriber on their network. It's a huge liability and without authorization from said system owner/administrator, vendor can't legally program or generate a system key for said system(s). So, no sample product>no system key>no compliance testing>no sale.

 

[kayn1n32008]

When it comes to P25 trunking systems, this is not the case. Many times the competitor's subscriber needs specific programming adjustments or even firmware fixes to make them work as the "other guy's" radio. Motorola, for example, has several APX firmware enhancements to address issues when their radios are used on Harris trunking systems.

I know of an ongoing issue with a rural fire department with their NX-5x00 radios on our Harris P25 network. The fix will likely have to come from Kenwood, as APX subscribers don’t have this issue.

 

[PriorMike]

Interesting discussion here on my thread.

 

[wwhitby]

Around here, Kenwood has a strong lock on the city and county public safety agencies, with Motorola and Harris following behind. It would be tough for Icom to break in to that market. They're going to have to offer great service and a really great price.

FWIW, I manage a small fleet of F4001s, F4011s and F24s. I like them. Simple to maintain and relatively durable. Our biggest problem is the two pin connector for earpieces and speaker mics. I've had two of them break in four years (not really that bad.) One was fixed under warranty and the other radio was replaced.

I also like that they are easy to program and the software was not expensive when I purchased it from a dealer. I've actually thought about replacing the Kenwood TK-380 I use with an F4001.

 

[RodStrong]

They've been in the process of doing that for nearly 3 years now. 2 years ago, they were trying to get CAP compliance. Last year...they were trying to get CAP compliance.

An engineer from Osaka flew here and we met in my office a few months ago (along with a couple USA corporate guys). They specifically wanted to discuss & ask questions about 800 trunking. My comment about them was based on that. That said, yes, they are moving slow. I was promised demos upwards of a couple years ago, and I'm still waiting.

 

[12dbsinad]

All F7000 series radio's are DHS CAP compliant as of October of 2019. As part of this, any older firmware needs to be upgraded for bug fixes. Older firmware is no longer supported at all.

Icom has a US based P25 engineering team from what I understand that supposed to be working on approvals for local and regional systems. DHS CAP approval was the first step obviously.

 

[RadioVoice]

The 700-ish Search And Rescue Volunteers here in King County (Seattle) Washington all buy their own radios, and "most" are Icoms.
Lots of F50's, a few F70's, and at least one F9011 and one F52D. All seem to work well. As to mobiles, a lesser number are in use, but again "most" are Icoms...F521's, F1721's, F1821's, and at least one F9511TH. Again, all seem to work well.

One reason Icom is so popular here is that they are head quartered here in King County, in Kirkland, which makes it easy to get repairs done
by just driving the radio to their back door, dropping it off, and go fetch it in a few days.

Steve/N7JLF

 

[bbo14]

This is more of a general info question...

Is anyone aware of any police/fire/ems using Icom equipment? I don't know if they are as well known as the other players in the field...

I know of several in my area. VHF, UHF and 800 P25, Phase II trunking. They work great. Icom got into 800 late in the game, but I'm glad they did.

 

[bbo14]

In my part of the world, dealers push Motorola or Harris until they find a department that's a little more cost conscious and then they almost universally push EJF Kenwood. ICOM is going to have really up their game with better response, service, and price (for equivalent quality & performance) if they have any hope of breaking into this market. That doesn't seem to be happening, yet.

I had Batwings on my check for almost 20 years and I have a biased opinion that Moto's flagship products are in a league of their own; thanks to the engineers. Their business policies, however, really went downhill before I left; no thanks to their management.

Even with my admitted bias, I am continually amused that radios which are superior to the HT's/Sabers/etc. that were the gold standard not that long ago, are now considered inadequate for "mission-critical" applications. Today, if the radio can't pound nails into a 2x4, get dragged through the bottom of Lake Michigan, survive getting run over by a tank, and take a bullet through the heart, it's not good enough for Public Safety. I'd suggest that if your life depends on your radio, don't pound nails with it, throw it at a brick wall, or soak it for hours in 10 feet of water.
If your life really depends on it, maybe you should keep it securely in a holder/pouch/carrier that is appropriate to the mission. (and don't use the antenna for


I might add: don't use the radio to hit and subdue a resisting prisoner either. Use your taser.

 

[70cutlass442]

Shops aren't non-profit entities (generally). They're in business to make as much profit as any other business. How is that greed? They do what is in their best interest. It is up to the CUSTOMER to research and verify if vendor B,C,D and E have a comparable product. If vendor (B,C, or D) isn't available to test, CUSTOMER will buy what CUSTOMER knows will work.

When it comes to P25 trunking systems, this is not the case. Many times the competitor's subscriber needs specific programming adjustments or even firmware fixes to make them work as the "other guy's" radio. Motorola, for example, has several APX firmware enhancements to address issues when their radios are used on Harris trunking systems.

Without having a product to sample and verify, no reputable public safety trunking system would authorize a subscriber from an untested, unknown vendor's subscriber on their network. It's a huge liability and without authorization from said system owner/administrator, vendor can't legally program or generate a system key for said system(s). So, no sample product>no system key>no compliance testing>no sale.

I am in Icom dealer and user of three public safety systems. I have little experience with Icom on anything other than conventional analog systems. Any chance you would want some demos if I could source them and ship them to you?

 

[MTS2000des]

I am in Icom dealer and user of three public safety systems. I have little experience with Icom on anything other than conventional analog systems. Any chance you would want some demos if I could source them and ship them to you?

I already received a response from Icom America's rep off the forum. He forwarded me a form authorizing them to provide system keys for our system. I do appreciate your response. I haven't been able to get back to him as we've been busy responding to COVID-19 related stuff compounded by a couple weeks of civil unrest including a night of destruction in our county followed by a demand for a bunch of radio programming. As soon as things calm down, I plan on following up with him.

 

[70cutlass442]

I already received a response from Icom America's rep off the forum. He forwarded me a form authorizing them to provide system keys for our system. I do appreciate your response. I haven't been able to get back to him as we've been busy responding to COVID-19 related stuff compounded by a couple weeks of civil unrest including a night of destruction in our county followed by a demand for a bunch of radio programming. As soon as things calm down, I plan on following up with him.

Please keep us updated as to how it all goes!