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ICOM IC-F621TR as GMRS Radio???

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mmckenna

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Laird makes good antennas.
However, while the "Phantom" antennas work OK on UHF and higher, they are no better than a 1/4 wave antenna, and sometimes worse (especially on VHF). I disagree when they use the term "low profile". Put one of those side by side with a simple 1/4 wave whip and you'll find the 1/4 wave is a lot less noticeable.
Plus, there's a big price difference.

Stick with the 1/4 wave. Try it and see if it works. For $9 or so, if it doesn't do exactly what you need, then you will only be out $9.00.
The 1/4 wave will cover GMRS and 70cm just fine. I did that for years. I had a commercial radio running both 70cm and GMRS, no issues, performed very well.

I did try a 5/8's wave antenna once, and I honestly couldn't tell the difference in performance compared to the 1/4 wave.

It's your money, so your choice, but after doing this stuff for 30 years, I keep coming back to the 1/4 wave antennas as the best for my applications.

One thing you can do is look at see what the public safety agencies are using in your area. While they'll have a much more sophisticated repeater/receiver system, you'll get a good idea of what works well.

On simplex, you are going to be limited by line of sight, so you'll find that in many cases higher gain antennas are not worth the extra cost.

As for road trip/car to car stuff, I'd get 10 miles no problem between vehicles with 1/4 waves mounted on the roof and 35 watt radios.


And, yes, there are NMO magnetic mounts.
 

K9RNW

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Laird makes good antennas.
However, while the "Phantom" antennas work OK on UHF and higher, they are no better than a 1/4 wave antenna, and sometimes worse (especially on VHF). I disagree when they use the term "low profile". Put one of those side by side with a simple 1/4 wave whip and you'll find the 1/4 wave is a lot less noticeable.
Plus, there's a big price difference.

Stick with the 1/4 wave. Try it and see if it works. For $9 or so, if it doesn't do exactly what you need, then you will only be out $9.00.
The 1/4 wave will cover GMRS and 70cm just fine. I did that for years. I had a commercial radio running both 70cm and GMRS, no issues, performed very well.

I did try a 5/8's wave antenna once, and I honestly couldn't tell the difference in performance compared to the 1/4 wave.

It's your money, so your choice, but after doing this stuff for 30 years, I keep coming back to the 1/4 wave antennas as the best for my applications.

One thing you can do is look at see what the public safety agencies are using in your area. While they'll have a much more sophisticated repeater/receiver system, you'll get a good idea of what works well.

On simplex, you are going to be limited by line of sight, so you'll find that in many cases higher gain antennas are not worth the extra cost.

As for road trip/car to car stuff, I'd get 10 miles no problem between vehicles with 1/4 waves mounted on the roof and 35 watt radios.


And, yes, there are NMO magnetic mounts.


Thanks! Agreed on the Phantom...

Good to know these 450-470 Mhz antennas still work OK down into the 440's. :cool: Sorry for all the questions. I got my amateur ticket right before college started...and then that plus grad school sucked me away from the hobby completely for 7 years. Trying to regain my footing.
 

mmckenna

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Not a problem, always happy to help.

That's the beauty of 1/4 wave antennas, very broad banded. Great for applications where you need to cover a lot of spectrum with one antenna.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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No 5 db gain without going 5/8 wave? Oh well. I'm just not sure what type of vehicular antenna is best for road-trip (car to car), or car to base use. I'm considering a dedicated UHF antenna for the attic (for base to car GMRS) alongside the dual-band amateur radio antenna, but that's a whole other topic. Maybe I've gone too far down the SHTF prepping rabbit hole for my own good. I digress...

As far as NMO mount antennas for the car (NMO can attach to a mag mount base, right??)...I've come across these. The Phantom Ultra seems cool as its range starts from within 70cm ham and goes well past GMRS, but it also has the highest VSWR (2.5:1). Though Laird claims the phantom is "superior to traditional antennas in most applications", which I guess they're referring to 1/4 and 1/2 waves. I really haven't a clue whether that's true.

Laird Ultra Phantom 430-500 Mhz - https://www.lairdtech.com/products/utra4301s3nb

Laird UHF Phantom 450-470 Mhz - https://www.lairdtech.com/products/TRAB4503 , https://www.lairdtech.com/products/ETRA4503


Of course...we have the old quarter wave:

https://kollmanradio.net/product/laird-technologies-qwb450-450-470-mhz-unity-gain-14-wave-black/


And...the slightly higher gain 1/2 wave:

Laird B4502N | 12.5 Inch UHF Whip Antenna with Chrome NMO Base - 450-470 MHz | Arcadian Antenna


Suffice to say, I am completely lost as to which antenna is the best. Don't really want something 20-30" long, and a slightly more expensive antenna is cool with me so long as it's worth the cashola. All thoughts appreciated :confused:


Those Laird low profile antennas are not going to perform well for you.

You can't go wrong with a 1/4 wave whip on an NMO mount. And yes, if you must, there are mag mounts for NMO mount, get one with a decent sized footprint so to maximize the ground plane. Larsen used to make a 1/4 wave NMO VHF whip that could be cut to any length for UHF etc. The ball was held on with a grub nut. You might shop for those.

Larsen Part Numbers:

NMOQW450 1/4 λ 450-470 MHz 0 dBd/2 dBi 7 inches 200W Stainless * Cable Order Separately

* NMO Permanent Mount cable assembly/mount is the NMOKHFUD (27 MHz to 6 GHz) with 17’of UD (RG-58/U Dual Shield).

http://productfinder.pulseeng.com/products/datasheets/ASB11 UHF Antennas.pdf

They also make various wideband collinear gain antennas, You can probably fudge the tuning length to split difference between TX at 70 CM and GMRS (Tune ~ 453.8 MHz) and get by with slightly elevated VSWR. I recommend calling a Larsen LMR Rep and see what kits they recommend.

Cutting Chart

http://www.pulseelectronics.com/docs/library/NMO UHF Series 08 12.pdf
 
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RFI-EMI-GUY

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Those 1/4 wave NMO's are very hard to notice on a vehicle, and when they are they scream undercover cop car. Otherwise the big 5/8 colinnears look like there might be a CB or Ham radio to be pilfered.

As far as the Laird low profile antennas, I would be concerned as to the potential vehicle body damage$$ if you hit a tree limb with it. The 1/4 wave NMO's take a real beating and usually you can straighten them right out and keep going.
 

K9RNW

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Hmmm....then is there really any reason at all to look at the 1/2 wave over the 1/4 wave? It's still just 12" tall. Are they more finicky?
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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Hmmm....then is there really any reason at all to look at the 1/2 wave over the 1/4 wave? It's still just 12" tall. Are they more finicky?

you mean this?

https://www.tessco.com/products/displayProductInfo.do?sku=63316

It has only 2.15 dBi gain (0 dBd). It is no better than a 1/4 wave whip at twice the size/cost! If you have a Corvette or a Fiberglass camper, maybe, but I would make a ground plane under the skin to do it right.

I am amazed at the proliferation of antenna models in the LMR market. Virtually every size and color!
 

K9RNW

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Just out of curiosity...which setup below would outperform the other in terms of signal reliability and distance? Assuming the setting is sometimes rural and usually suburban (not a densely populated area like inner NYC/Chicago), and mobile to mobile or mobile to HT transmission:

5-10W VHF or 40-45W UHF


I've been playing a bit with the RadioMobile coverage simulator Radio Mobile Online , and the results are surprising. 7W of VHF from mobile/HT antenna height seems to outperform even 45W of UHF in terms of coverage.... :confused: Whether or not that's true in real-life scenarios I have no clue. Any input appreciated.
 

mmckenna

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So many variables involved to answer that.

UHF can be useful. The shorter wavelength can penetrate buildings better.
VHF tends to do better in hilly/mountainous areas. Probably outperform UHF in dense forest.

But when you start changing the power levels around, it adds to the differences.

For many years I used GMRS for family communications. I could easily get 15 miles between mobile radios running 35 watts in to permanent mount 1/4 wave antennas.
We also rode ATV's quite a bit, and a couple of 4 watt HT's would work well in some environments, and it worked well into repeaters.

Later on, I was able to get others to get their amateur licenses. We moved everyone onto VHF. It tends to perform a bit better in most cases. Running 45-50 watt radios from UTV's has worked well, even a few 25 watt radios have done well.

I wouldn't put all your eggs into the software simulator package. Real world testing will be much more accurate. Lower end simulator software can't take into account all the variables, buildings, building materials, etc.
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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Just out of curiosity...which setup below would outperform the other in terms of signal reliability and distance? Assuming the setting is sometimes rural and usually suburban (not a densely populated area like inner NYC/Chicago), and mobile to mobile or mobile to HT transmission:

5-10W VHF or 40-45W UHF


I've been playing a bit with the RadioMobile coverage simulator Radio Mobile Online , and the results are surprising. 7W of VHF from mobile/HT antenna height seems to outperform even 45W of UHF in terms of coverage.... :confused: Whether or not that's true in real-life scenarios I have no clue. Any input appreciated.

You have to be careful when modeling. At VHF the noise floor is typically higher than at UHF. Also at UHF the antenna efficiencies tend to be better. A UHF portable will have a relatively effective 1/4 wave whip while a VHF portable will have a helical antenna with worse body loss. Coaxial cable losses are another matter.
 

K9RNW

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Looks like I'm getting closer.....

Aside from quarter wave antennas for cars that have an adequate ground plane....I did some digging and found a couple contenders for when that may not be the case, or when I want to deploy a mobile radio as a "base" in the hotel room and plop the antenna mag mount on the night stand or desk.

Like I said, the cars going on these trips always vary in terms of their roof's metal-to-glass ratios. So I'd need a couple antennas on hand that'd perform fine *either* with or without a ground plane. These two seem to be the best choices after talking with Laird tech support. I'm curious what your (more educated than my) thoughts are :)

450-470 Mhz 1/2 wave: http://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/laird-technologies-bb4502ns-3236.html

450-470 Mhz 5/8 wave: http://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/laird-technologies-bb4503s-7825.html
 

RFI-EMI-GUY

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Looks like I'm getting closer.....

Aside from quarter wave antennas for cars that have an adequate ground plane....I did some digging and found a couple contenders for when that may not be the case, or when I want to deploy a mobile radio as a "base" in the hotel room and plop the antenna mag mount on the night stand or desk.

Like I said, the cars going on these trips always vary in terms of their roof's metal-to-glass ratios. So I'd need a couple antennas on hand that'd perform fine *either* with or without a ground plane. These two seem to be the best choices after talking with Laird tech support. I'm curious what your (more educated than my) thoughts are :)

450-470 Mhz 1/2 wave: http://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/laird-technologies-bb4502ns-3236.html

450-470 Mhz 5/8 wave: http://www.theantennafarm.com/catalog/laird-technologies-bb4503s-7825.html
Honestly, I would start with an NMO mount and a quarter wave and if that doesn't work out, the 5/8 wave if they can assure you it will tune well enough for the ham and GMRS frequencies. You will be happy to have a quarter wave spare when the 5/8 gets snapped, or you want something stealthier.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk
 

K9RNW

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Honestly, I would start with an NMO mount and a quarter wave and if that doesn't work out, the 5/8 wave if they can assure you it will tune well enough for the ham and GMRS frequencies. You will be happy to have a quarter wave spare when the 5/8 gets snapped, or you want something stealthier.

Right, that would be ideal, but a quarter wave isn't going to be swappable between cars that have a good ground plane and those that have a questionable or absent one. It also won't work as a makeshift base antenna as I described. Essentially question is, between those two antennas, which would be the less finicky of the two across these scenarios?

Whether or not it works on 70cm is pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme. People I'd be providing equipment for during trips would be non-hams.
 

K9RNW

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Well, this is odd. Asked tech support at ArcAntenna and he said that particular 5/8 wave antenna isn't a no-ground-plane model, and suggested that 1/2 wave one (BB4502NS).

I thought both 1/2 wave and 5/8 wave antennas didn't need ground planes.... :confused: Oh well...
 
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