iDEN in Calgary (& Calgary Transit)

[thundermedic]

So here is a question for all of you speculators out there...

Telus has advised all of it's corporate consumers that there is about a year left before they pull the plug on Mike (iDEN) Mike as a cell phone worked ok, Data transfer is slow (2.5g) but as a Radio system it worked quite well. So well in fact that there are several large groups (EMS outside of Calgary (and inside Calgary Metro for telemetry of ECG's), Calgary Transit, and CPS and By-Law ( they use them as backup if Calgary Digital Radio Network either goes down or is down for maintenance)

Calgary Transit is in a unique situation, They have everyone from the LRT (all ~200 cars, both ends), Buses & Shuttles (~1150 as per https://www.calgarytransit.com/about-us/facts-and-figures/statistics), Mechanics, Security (Peace Officers) Regular and Peace Officer Dispatch all use iDEN radio only.

What do you think they are going to do? From a straight money standpoint I think the City should buy the sites from TELUS and having a third party service them (Either TAC Mobility, or AirTel) I haven't come across an EOL announcement from Motorola.(Well, not formally.. yet..)

You don't think they will migrate the fleet into AFRRCS? If that was to happen they would have to double the amount channels on the Calgary Sites. The only other idea I had would have them taking over the CDR system if Calgary Emergency Services actually go to AFFRCS, but I know our outgoing Police Chief, and Fire Chief did not want to go to that system, and with the HUGE budget shortfall at the same time they want to roll this system out is something that factored into the discussions.

Love to hear your thoughts...

 

[mikewazowski]

What do you think they are going to do? From a straight money standpoint I think the City should buy the sites from TELUS and having a third party service them (Either TAC Mobility, or AirTel) I haven't come across an EOL announcement from Motorola.(Well, not formally.. yet..)

The spectrum Telus occupies is worth its weight in gold. They would never give up their frequencies.

 

[beeperboy]

Yup, and along with the sites, you need a $10M switch to run the system.

 

[thundermedic]

Yup, and along with the sites, you need a $10M switch to run the system.

AIrTel has a iDEN network in Calgary already (Calgary’s Leading Provider of Push-to-Talk | Airtel Wireless) they used to serve the Calgary Airport Authority, until they 100% transferred to Calgary Digital Radio. It's an interesting question because I know the City of Calgary has not budgeted for this and I can't see costing under a few Million and will need to be fast tracked

 

[Ambulance2014]

Just a outgoing qestion on this topic I am no way experienced with the radio systems

But do you think scanner listeners would ever be able to listen to calgary transit ? I know they have been on the encrypted system for a while now but has calgary transit been listenable ever at all before they went encrypted? Or have they alway non accessable to scanners to pick up? Just curious for those who would know the answers.
Would they ever go on a system that would be allow scanners to pick them up after the telus networks shuts down?

 

[robertmac]

Yes. They were in the 4XX.xxxx range along with CPS. I'm not sure I would call them encrypted right now other than using the iDEN system. And as stated above, what is going to happen is a guess at this time.

 

[smason]

but has calgary transit been listenable ever at all before they went encrypted? Or have they alway non accessable to scanners to pick up? Just curious for those who would know the answers.

Yep, I forget the exact freqs, in the late 70s early 80's I could recite all of the CPS and CTS freqs from memory I still remember many of the CPS ones.
Transit was on 460.xxx if I remember correctly.

 

[kayn1n32008]

Just a outgoing qestion on this topic I am no way experienced with the radio systems



But do you think scanner listeners would ever be able to listen to calgary transit ? I know they have been on the encrypted system for a while now but has calgary transit been listenable ever at all before they went encrypted? Or have they alway non accessable to scanners to pick up? Just curious for those who would know the answers.

Would they ever go on a system that would be allow scanners to pick them up after the telus networks shuts down?

Calgary transit is not 'encrypted' per say, they just use a format that is not able to be monitored.


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[beeperboy]

Yep, I forget the exact freqs, in the late 70s early 80's I could recite all of the CPS and CTS freqs from memory I still remember many of the CPS ones.
Transit was on 460.xxx if I remember correctly.

Yup, the old Motorola SpectraTAC voted receiver system. It worked well in it's day, for what it was. Moto built a hell of a radio system back then,

 

[beeperboy]

Calgary transit is not 'encrypted' per say, they just use a format that is not able to be monitored.


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I haven't kept up, but even know there isn't any software that can monitor IDEN? Hmm.

I helped commission the Calgary IDEN system for ClearNET back in the mid 90's.

 

[kayn1n32008]

I haven't kept up, but even know there isn't any software that can monitor IDEN? Hmm.



I helped commission the Calgary IDEN system for ClearNET back in the mid 90's.

None that I know of. Pretty sure DSD or any of those software based decoder do not... Considering SouthernLinc is about the only operator of iDEN left in the US, and with Telus less than a year from pulling the plug, I seriously doubt any will appear.

I can't believe how technology has shrunk for 'cellular' infrastructure... Heck you don't even need a shelter, just a small equipment vault... I have surveyed leases that are less than 10m x10m for a full on HSPA cell site.


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[Jay911]

None that I know of. Pretty sure DSD or any of those software based decoder do not... Considering SouthernLinc is about the only operator of iDEN left in the US, and with Telus less than a year from pulling the plug, I seriously doubt any will appear.

I think Rick Parrish (Unitrunker) was asked this a few years ago and the response was along the lines of a (then) current slicer not being up to the task. No idea if that still applies to current SDR technology, but like you say, there's low demand.

 

[thundermedic]

Not to call this thread Hijacked or anything, but we have shifted focus...

I love the conversation about iDEN because I have used it for years in the EMS system (2005 - onward) As a Flight Medic it was the only way we had to communicate with our dispatch centre (High Level) when we were waiting in the hallways of the U of A in Edmonton. It should also be noted that EMS services still use the iDEN phones to communicate, they also use it for data transmission of 12-lead, and 15-lead-ECG's in the field before administering thrombolytics (For AMI's and STEMI's ) in the field.

Our Sheriffs, also use iDEN, and when transferred to AFRRCS all of these services will need Cellular connections for data, be it for the MDT's and trackers (That can be installed by a internal card) to EMS who will need a new way of transmitting because the equipment does not have internal GSM connections. (LifePak 15 does have Bluetooth if paid for)

If Calgary Transit, Calgary Police Service, Calgary Fire, AHS EMS, and others all come online with AFRACS will the system still have the bandwidth to accommodate all of these users? We know that AFRRCS is a voice only system, and with Calgary Transit's new tracking system (City of Calgary Information) (CBC News article) it would only make sense they connected it to the iDEN systems already in the bus... The spectrum in Calgary is about to get very busy!

 

[Jay911]

My work with the Canadian Interoperability Technology Interest Group has given me some insight on data for public safety going forward.

In the immediate future, data for things like telemetry and mobile data terminals will continue to be transported across things like cellular networks and perhaps some dedicated services.

In the next year or two, we're going to see data carried over "normal" LTE networks, on tablets, smartphones, and similar devices. New Zealand's national police force is already using it, and other agencies are close to deploying it. It also works alongside the existing mobile data terminals.

Mobile Responder | Public Safety | Intergraph

(I don't know what telemetry for LP12/15 and similar stuff will involve, as I haven't been using that technology myself.)

Down the road 5 to 10 years, two different kinds of public safety broadband will come to life. Some places in the USA are already using it in some fashion, either as beta testers or early adopters. One such service is in the 4900-4990 MHz band and, IIRC, is intended for video and other high bandwidth content.

The other public safety network will live in the 700 MHz band, adjacent to 700 public safety voice. (Aside: There are actually two 10 MHz chunks of public safety broadband in the 700 band. The US allocated both of them to public safety. In Canada, one of them was allocated to public safety, and the other was auctioned off - awarded to mobile telephone companies.)

The 700 public safety broadband spectrum will use LTE (Long Term Evolution), the same protocol that mobile phone data uses now - or at least a version of it. This is where telemetry, mobile data terminals, AVL, and similar functionality will reside. Professional radios are coming out with LTE capability now, alongside the 7/8 voice capability.

 

[thundermedic]

City of Calgary moving to CDR

Well in looking for information on another system... I found this:

RFP - CALGARY TRANSIT RADIO Communications System Engineering Consulting Services

So Calgary Transit did a study, but it looks like they decided on something... (more later)

I was having a conversation with someone from CPS and was told MiKE's shutdown has been put off by at least 6 months, (My guess was because AHS who uses it for dispatch is just testing it this month)

I also found this RFP for the Calgary Digital Radio:

RFP - Motorola Radio Dispatch Consoles

Inside the RFP, it states:

1. The communication system currently used by City business units, TELUS iDEN MIKE push to talk network, is not anticipated to be supported beyond 2016 December 31. Calgary Transit and other city business units are migrating to the DRS, joining other City business units that already utilize this system.

So iDEN Shutdown wont be until the end of this year, but migration off of it will be happening fast. I can see:

Calgary Transit - LRT, Busses, Transit Security & Peace Officers, Maintenance, and Yards
Waste Management - Spyhill, East Calgary, & Shepard Landfilsl, Residential Garbage, Recycling, & Compost Collection, Multi-family / Bin Garbage & Recycling Depot Pickups,
Roads - Plows, Repairs, Paving, other work in 6 Districts
Wastewater - Sewers, Bonnybrook, Pine Creek, Fish Creek Wastewater Treatment Plants,
Water - Distribution, Glenmore & Bearspaw Water Treatment Plant
Parks - Maintenance (5 Districts) Downtown during events like Folk Fest, or any time Prince's Island Park, or Olympic Park holds events.
Recreation - 5 Zones, Summer Camps, Glenmore Boat Patrol, Arenas and maybe Leisure Centres will change over
Corporate Security - for the EOC, City Hall and Municipal Building, Manchester Yards, and VIP protection (Mayor at events), Investigations
Corporate Properties - Maintenance of all properties

That's who I KNOW are on iDEN. Should be a good time for scanners in the near future.