• To anyone looking to acquire commercial radio programming software:

    Please do not make requests for copies of radio programming software which is sold (or was sold) by the manufacturer for any monetary value. All requests will be deleted and a forum infraction issued. Making a request such as this is attempting to engage in software piracy and this forum cannot be involved or associated with this activity. The same goes for any private transaction via Private Message. Even if you attempt to engage in this activity in PM's we will still enforce the forum rules. Your PM's are not private and the administration has the right to read them if there's a hint to criminal activity.

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    For M/A Com/Harris/GE, etc: there are two software packages that program all current and past radios. One package is for conventional programming and the other for trunked programming. The trunked package is in upwards of $2,500. The conventional package is more reasonable though is still several hundred dollars. The benefit is you do not need multiple versions for each radio (unlike Motorola).

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Interested in getting licensed for your own HF frequencies? Step right in!

TampaTyron

Beep Boop, Beep Boop
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Messages
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Location
Phoenix, AZ
So, I was interested in getting my own HF frequencies. I was interested in getting HF frequencies for my customers (I work at a large Motorola Radio Shop in the SW US). There was no How-To that I could find to show step by step. Obviously, you would not use this for your family, friends, prepper group, or for folks not wanting to get their ham license. But, if you wanted HF frequencies for your business, this is how I was able to do it.

Yes, I understand this write up will give folks enough info to find out my name, address, employer, etc. With that being said, I feel the help it provides folks outweighs the risk of attracting "interesting" new friends on the Internet.

First, I tried to figure out who is licensed for HF frequencies that are commercial users (not radio location, experimental, public safety, marine, or aircraft licenses). I started by going to FCC.GOV, then click on Licensing and Databases, then click on GenMen, then Site/Market/Frequency. In this query, if you select a state like California and set the Begin frequency to 2MHz and the End frequency to 27MHz. Click on Submit Query at the bottom left of the page.

Second, there should now be a list of licensed users for the State in CA in the HF spectrum. If we ignore Radio Location (RS), Experimental (XT/XD/XC/XR), Public Safety (PW), Marine (MC), and Aircraft (AF) licenses, we should be left with Commercial users (IG). ****You could get to this same list in the FCC query by selecting the Service as Land Mobile-Private AND selecting Specific Radio Services for Land Mobile-Private to IG.**** This will reduce the list to only commercial land mobile licensees. In my research, I performed these searches in about 15-20 states to really buildup an understanding of the options available.

Third, if we review this list of FCC licenses, we can see several that are only licensed for 25MHz. We can ignore those as we want to be licensed for more than 25MHz. We then see an interesting pattern develop. There are several folks licensed for regular channelized operation (individual frequencies) and several folks licensed for ranges. If we look at a few sample licenses, we can see WNKR878 Pacific Bell. If you look under Frequencies, you see come interesting stuff. Under Admin, you can see a special condition referring to several freq ranges below 8MHz and a reference to PN 4126. If we look at WQYS571 Utility Telecom Group, we can look in the Admin section and under Special Conditions we see another reference to PN 4126 in 1988. If we click on their New Application on 12/01/2016, we get taken to the Application and if we click on Admin, we can look at the Attachment "Request for New HF License". This provides some background on the justification for HF frequencies. Now, if we look at WQLE815 NVIS Comm we see some ranges and some channelized frequencies. If we click on ADMIN, then click on ALL Applications, then scroll down to click on the one from 4/13/2010, then click on Admin, then scroll down to the Attachments, we see a Statement Of Eligibility and Request for Frequencies above 8MHz. These attachments provide a good bit background on how to justify requesting HF operation.

So far in our quest, we see several items of interest:
-FCC Public Notice 4126 (PN 4126)
-90.35
-90.129
-90.266

I am not an FCC expert (I have worked at radio shops and radio manufacturers for more than 25 years, but have usually referred FCC licensing to a FCC coordinator and just marked up the cost).

Here is what I know about each one of these items of interest:
-FCC PN 4126 is a FCC Public Notice in 1988 where the FCC set aside several HF bands from 2MHz to 8MHz for telephone companies to use in case their primary/secondary/tertiary communication systems fail. This would allow the phone companies and their repair contractors to use HF to help restore phone service. I found a bunch of info via an old BellCore HF Radio Network/Radio Engineering BCC (BellCore Manual BR 950-500-100 dated March 1992).
-FCC 90.35 is a FCC radio class that is for commercial/industrial radio users. This is the portion of licensing for normal radio users that are not Public Safety or other classes of "not industrial/commercial" users (i.e this is the class for commercial users to get a normal VHF/UHF frequency license).
-FCC 90.129 is for Routine info needing to be submitted along with license requests, info needed depends on license request/needs. This is part of the FCC application where the person requesting the emergency disaster HF frequencies must provide justification and network planning of their expected use.
-FCC 90.266 is the rule by which organizations get licensed on frequencies from 2-25MHz. Lots of conditions and requirements in order to get frequencies. My favorite is that it limits users to no more than 7 hours of TESTING per week.

Here are the HF Bands that seem to be available for commercial/non-public safety licensing (FCC Part 90 IG) (based on the FCC Online Table of Frequency Allocations pages 6-17).

2.107-2.170 (covered in original PN4126, but not modern PN 4126 licenses)
2.194-2.495 (covered in PN4126)
2.505-2.850 (covered in original PN4126, but not modern PN 4126 licenses)
3.155-3.400 (covered in PN4126)
4.438-4.650 (covered in PN4126)
4.750-4.995 (covered in original PN4126, but not modern PN 4126 licenses)
5.005-5.450 (covered in PN4126)
5.730-5.900 (covered in original PN4126, but not modern PN 4126 licenses)
6.765-7.000 (covered in PN4126)
7.400-8.100 (covered in PN4126)
9.040-9.400
9.900-9.995
10.150-11.175
11.400-11.600
12.100-12.230
13.410-13.570
13.870-14.000
14.350-14.990
15.800-16.360
17.410-17.480
18.030-18.068
18.168-18.780
19.020-19.680
19.800-19.990
20.010-21.000
21.850-21.924
22.855-23.200

The PN 4126 frequencies cover most of the bands capable of NVIS. I am also interested in more bands above 8MHz but below about 20MHz to help with normal HF propagation. So I am selecting freqs in several bands spread between 8 and 20 in addition to the PN 4126 bands. I have requested a secondary channel in each band in case of interference.


So, here is what it seems we need in order to get licensed:
-LLC or Corp really any corp name should be ok (a telephone circuit repair sounding name may be better).
-New EIN/TIN for the new LLC from the IRS (required to get FRN).
-New FRN (separate from my ham, GMRS, and other licensed freqs).
-Justification letter explaining need and justification for HF frequencies per 90.35, 90.129, PN 4126, and 90.266
-Copy of FCC equipment authorization of the HF radios you plan to use (to show that you do not intend to use modded ham rigs, recommend using commercial units by Icom, Barrett, Codan, etc). Be aware the Icom unit will not do AM, if that may be a concern.
-FCC Licensing Coordinator (EWA in this case, it was our specific coordinator's first time doing any HF frequencies)
-Time, the process takes about 6-8 weeks from time of submitting the 601 application to the FCC coordinator to make it through the Engineering Review and receive the license (if your application is complete and is not returned).
-Money, the cost of this process was about $85 for a new LLC and $ 1,200 licensing through a local radio dealer (who went through EWA or Enterprise Wireless Alliance).

Some other items I am looking into are:
-Voice squelch modules for radios that do not have voice/syllabic squelch to reduce operator fatigue
-Rough guide for users to help predict coverage (time of day, time of year, NVIS, etc)

I am interested in any constructive feedback that folks may have. Thank you, TampaTyron.
 

mmckenna

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Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
23,545
Location
Hiding in a coffee shop.
I'll have to spend some time looking over my notes. I've been working on the same thing.
We received grant funding for HF gear for our OES group. I've got two HF flypacks. We should have access to state OES frequencies, but I'm thinking of adding some of our own.

I do know you have to provide some justification on why VHF/UHF/etc will not work for your needs.
 

TampaTyron

Beep Boop, Beep Boop
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
1,090
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Using the FCC website, you can copy/paste relevant details from other folks justification letters so the task isn't so daunting. TT
 

WB5UOM

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Sep 5, 2022
Messages
234
I guess I am curious...You say you want HF freqs for You and for Your Customers.
But WHO do you intend to communicate with?
And who do your Customers intend to communicate with?

I may have missed something- maybe you mentioned that.
 

BMDaug

I am licensed…
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 18, 2022
Messages
1,097
Location
Central Colorado, USA
So, I was interested in getting my own HF frequencies. I was interested in getting HF frequencies for my customers (I work at a large Motorola Radio Shop in the SW US). There was no How-To that I could find to show step by step. Obviously, you would not use this for your family, friends, prepper group, or for folks not wanting to get their ham license. But, if you wanted HF frequencies for your business, this is how I was able to do it.

Yes, I understand this write up will give folks enough info to find out my name, address, employer, etc. With that being said, I feel the help it provides folks outweighs the risk of attracting "interesting" new friends on the Internet.

First, I tried to figure out who is licensed for HF frequencies that are commercial users (not radio location, experimental, public safety, marine, or aircraft licenses). I started by going to FCC.GOV, then click on Licensing and Databases, then click on GenMen, then Site/Market/Frequency. In this query, if you select a state like California and set the Begin frequency to 2MHz and the End frequency to 27MHz. Click on Submit Query at the bottom left of the page.

Second, there should now be a list of licensed users for the State in CA in the HF spectrum. If we ignore Radio Location (RS), Experimental (XT/XD/XC/XR), Public Safety (PW), Marine (MC), and Aircraft (AF) licenses, we should be left with Commercial users (IG). ****You could get to this same list in the FCC query by selecting the Service as Land Mobile-Private AND selecting Specific Radio Services for Land Mobile-Private to IG.**** This will reduce the list to only commercial land mobile licensees. In my research, I performed these searches in about 15-20 states to really buildup an understanding of the options available.

Third, if we review this list of FCC licenses, we can see several that are only licensed for 25MHz. We can ignore those as we want to be licensed for more than 25MHz. We then see an interesting pattern develop. There are several folks licensed for regular channelized operation (individual frequencies) and several folks licensed for ranges. If we look at a few sample licenses, we can see WNKR878 Pacific Bell. If you look under Frequencies, you see come interesting stuff. Under Admin, you can see a special condition referring to several freq ranges below 8MHz and a reference to PN 4126. If we look at WQYS571 Utility Telecom Group, we can look in the Admin section and under Special Conditions we see another reference to PN 4126 in 1988. If we click on their New Application on 12/01/2016, we get taken to the Application and if we click on Admin, we can look at the Attachment "Request for New HF License". This provides some background on the justification for HF frequencies. Now, if we look at WQLE815 NVIS Comm we see some ranges and some channelized frequencies. If we click on ADMIN, then click on ALL Applications, then scroll down to click on the one from 4/13/2010, then click on Admin, then scroll down to the Attachments, we see a Statement Of Eligibility and Request for Frequencies above 8MHz. These attachments provide a good bit background on how to justify requesting HF operation.

So far in our quest, we see several items of interest:
-FCC Public Notice 4126 (PN 4126)
-90.35
-90.129
-90.266

I am not an FCC expert (I have worked at radio shops and radio manufacturers for more than 25 years, but have usually referred FCC licensing to a FCC coordinator and just marked up the cost).

Here is what I know about each one of these items of interest:
-FCC PN 4126 is a FCC Public Notice in 1988 where the FCC set aside several HF bands from 2MHz to 8MHz for telephone companies to use in case their primary/secondary/tertiary communication systems fail. This would allow the phone companies and their repair contractors to use HF to help restore phone service. I found a bunch of info via an old BellCore HF Radio Network/Radio Engineering BCC (BellCore Manual BR 950-500-100 dated March 1992).
-FCC 90.35 is a FCC radio class that is for commercial/industrial radio users. This is the portion of licensing for normal radio users that are not Public Safety or other classes of "not industrial/commercial" users (i.e this is the class for commercial users to get a normal VHF/UHF frequency license).
-FCC 90.129 is for Routine info needing to be submitted along with license requests, info needed depends on license request/needs. This is part of the FCC application where the person requesting the emergency disaster HF frequencies must provide justification and network planning of their expected use.
-FCC 90.266 is the rule by which organizations get licensed on frequencies from 2-25MHz. Lots of conditions and requirements in order to get frequencies. My favorite is that it limits users to no more than 7 hours of TESTING per week.

Here are the HF Bands that seem to be available for commercial/non-public safety licensing (FCC Part 90 IG) (based on the FCC Online Table of Frequency Allocations pages 6-17).

2.107-2.170 (covered in original PN4126, but not modern PN 4126 licenses)
2.194-2.495 (covered in PN4126)
2.505-2.850 (covered in original PN4126, but not modern PN 4126 licenses)
3.155-3.400 (covered in PN4126)
4.438-4.650 (covered in PN4126)
4.750-4.995 (covered in original PN4126, but not modern PN 4126 licenses)
5.005-5.450 (covered in PN4126)
5.730-5.900 (covered in original PN4126, but not modern PN 4126 licenses)
6.765-7.000 (covered in PN4126)
7.400-8.100 (covered in PN4126)
9.040-9.400
9.900-9.995
10.150-11.175
11.400-11.600
12.100-12.230
13.410-13.570
13.870-14.000
14.350-14.990
15.800-16.360
17.410-17.480
18.030-18.068
18.168-18.780
19.020-19.680
19.800-19.990
20.010-21.000
21.850-21.924
22.855-23.200

The PN 4126 frequencies cover most of the bands capable of NVIS. I am also interested in more bands above 8MHz but below about 20MHz to help with normal HF propagation. So I am selecting freqs in several bands spread between 8 and 20 in addition to the PN 4126 bands. I have requested a secondary channel in each band in case of interference.


So, here is what it seems we need in order to get licensed:
-LLC or Corp really any corp name should be ok (a telephone circuit repair sounding name may be better).
-New EIN/TIN for the new LLC from the IRS (required to get FRN).
-New FRN (separate from my ham, GMRS, and other licensed freqs).
-Justification letter explaining need and justification for HF frequencies per 90.35, 90.129, PN 4126, and 90.266
-Copy of FCC equipment authorization of the HF radios you plan to use (to show that you do not intend to use modded ham rigs, recommend using commercial units by Icom, Barrett, Codan, etc). Be aware the Icom unit will not do AM, if that may be a concern.
-FCC Licensing Coordinator (EWA in this case, it was our specific coordinator's first time doing any HF frequencies)
-Time, the process takes about 6-8 weeks from time of submitting the 601 application to the FCC coordinator to make it through the Engineering Review and receive the license (if your application is complete and is not returned).
-Money, the cost of this process was about $85 for a new LLC and $ 1,200 licensing through a local radio dealer (who went through EWA or Enterprise Wireless Alliance).

Some other items I am looking into are:
-Voice squelch modules for radios that do not have voice/syllabic squelch to reduce operator fatigue
-Rough guide for users to help predict coverage (time of day, time of year, NVIS, etc)

I am interested in any constructive feedback that folks may have. Thank you, TampaTyron.
Do you know if the frequency is not a part of the modern PN4126, can it still be licensed in the IG pools? I’m specifically looking for state-wide NVIS comms using Barrett encrypted digital voice (4050s). I don’t need to be a part of the PN4126 pool as I don’t think I fit the description, but I do need something appropriate for NVIS.

Thanks for posting this!!

-B
 

TampaTyron

Beep Boop, Beep Boop
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Feb 1, 2010
Messages
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Location
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You can get licensed for any frequency in any IG bands if you demonstrate a need. I choose the PN4126 because it gives you large ranges AND is very easy vs a non-pn4126 justification. Normal HF justification is almost always an automatic no. TT
 

mmckenna

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Joined
Jul 27, 2005
Messages
23,545
Location
Hiding in a coffee shop.
I guess I am curious...You say you want HF freqs for You and for Your Customers.
But WHO do you intend to communicate with?
And who do your Customers intend to communicate with?

I may have missed something- maybe you mentioned that.

It's useful for agencies/companies that want to do NVIS type communications for statewide coverage without needing repeaters/networks.
A lot of state OES agencies have frequencies licensed for this.
Some companies want it as a fall back. AT&T wireline used to (probably still does) have an HF network for communicating in real big disasters. "back in the day" the guys that did the nationwide coax networks for long distance traffic used HF to communicate in/out of the really remote areas.
Some businesses have legit needs for long range communications, the petroleum industry is a big user in some areas.

OES agencies like it as a 3rd/4th level backup to the statewide radio networks, satellite phones, satellite radio, etc...
 

WB5UOM

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Sep 5, 2022
Messages
234
@mmckena on WHO to talk too...
I understand that COMPANIES in certain fields may need the HF comms...
I am asking the op who HE intends to talk to....

So, here is what it seems we need in order to get licensed:
-LLC or Corp really any corp name should be ok (a telephone circuit repair sounding name may be better).
-New EIN/TIN for the new LLC from the IRS (required to get FRN).
-New FRN (separate from my ham, GMRS, and other licensed freqs).
 

TampaTyron

Beep Boop, Beep Boop
Premium Subscriber
Joined
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Messages
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Location
Phoenix, AZ
Regarding WHO...... I assumed it would be obvious by my post. I intend to communicate with other members of my company as we are engaged in repairing telecommunication circuits. Keep in mind that per FCC 90.266, there can be no more than 7 hours of testing per week. I think that is enough testing for me. TT
 

WB5UOM

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
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Messages
234
I can see where I misunderstood what the OP said.

@TampaTyron: So, I was interested in getting my own HF frequencies.
I was interested in getting HF frequencies for my customers (I work at a large Motorola Radio Shop in the SW US)

I sure thought "my" meant you. Sorry

@TampaTyron : -LLC or Corp really any corp name should be ok (a telephone circuit repair sounding name may be better).

it would seem to me that the Company you work for would get the License and use the name they already have.

@TampaTyron: -New FRN (separate from my ham, GMRS, and other licensed freqs)

Again I am sorry for misreading that to think you are talking about yourself.

Total misunderstanding on my part.
 

TampaTyron

Beep Boop, Beep Boop
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Joined
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Messages
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Location
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Talking about both..... a company I created for the purpose of restoring telecom circuits AND for my customers at a different company in which I work building and maintaining radio systems. TT
 

TampaTyron

Beep Boop, Beep Boop
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Messages
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Location
Phoenix, AZ
I can see where I misunderstood what the OP said.

@TampaTyron: So, I was interested in getting my own HF frequencies.
I was interested in getting HF frequencies for my customers (I work at a large Motorola Radio Shop in the SW US)


Total misunderstanding on my part.

I re-read it and can see where it would be confusing. In the future, I will try to simplify it using fewer and smaller words for all of the Kenwood Dealers. TT
 

DeoVindice

P25 Underground
Joined
Sep 27, 2019
Messages
449
Location
Gadsden Purchase
It's useful for agencies/companies that want to do NVIS type communications for statewide coverage without needing repeaters/networks.
A lot of state OES agencies have frequencies licensed for this.
Some companies want it as a fall back. AT&T wireline used to (probably still does) have an HF network for communicating in real big disasters. "back in the day" the guys that did the nationwide coax networks for long distance traffic used HF to communicate in/out of the really remote areas.
Some businesses have legit needs for long range communications, the petroleum industry is a big user in some areas.

OES agencies like it as a 3rd/4th level backup to the statewide radio networks, satellite phones, satellite radio, etc...

I'd be pretty interested in NVIS for non-petroleum mineral exploration and mine ops in remote areas. Satcom is currently the only viable option.
 

paulears

Member
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Messages
767
Location
Lowestoft - UK
I’m amazed anybody in the comms industry would want to use HF for reliable comms. The very nature of HF makes it so propagation sensitive. Climatic, time of day, operator skill, antennas, and of course interference from any country who may or may not respect international law makes HF a rotten choice. Surely satphones are the solution if you want security and reliability.
 

mmckenna

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Messages
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Location
Hiding in a coffee shop.
I’m amazed anybody in the comms industry would want to use HF for reliable comms. The very nature of HF makes it so propagation sensitive. Climatic, time of day, operator skill, antennas, and of course interference from any country who may or may not respect international law makes HF a rotten choice. Surely satphones are the solution if you want security and reliability.

NVIS antennas, so most are not trying to cover huge areas.
ALE, so setup of a radio path is pretty easy. Radios have a lot of automation. Add in digital waveforms, and things get a bit easier.

But, yes, a good reason why it is not a primary communications source for many. Mostly it is being used as a 2nd/3rd level fall back behind satellite based systems.

I've finally been able to get some time to start working with our Codan stuff. Still figuring out programming of all the features. One of these days I'll take it out and set it up somewhere remote and see what she'll do. Then I'll start training our OES staff.
 

TampaTyron

Beep Boop, Beep Boop
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Messages
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Location
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Due to recent world events, there has been a lot of interest from customers in systems that are not based on third party infrastructure that they do not control (Internet, cellular, satellite, etc). While I admit that the Ionosphere is not an easy to control/predict system, there are several things that make it better for end users. These include the VOACAP Prop Wheel, ALE, NVIS, and digital voice like MELP and MELPe. TT
 
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Messages
1,265
TT are you coming to IWCE?
Ross Merlin is giving a talk on NVIS.

I'm in Mesa about 1 week a month if you want to do lunch sometime.
 

TampaTyron

Beep Boop, Beep Boop
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Not going to IWCE or CPE this year. The shop I work for is in Tempe. I live in Chandler. Shoot me a message when you think you will be in town as I travel a ton for work. We are expanding and hiring like crazy across several of our locations, so I travel to support expansion and customers on short notice. TT
 

riveter

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Messages
1,481
Location
MD
I’m amazed anybody in the comms industry would want to use HF for reliable comms. The very nature of HF makes it so propagation sensitive. Climatic, time of day, operator skill, antennas, and of course interference from any country who may or may not respect international law makes HF a rotten choice. Surely satphones are the solution if you want security and reliability.
Complexity and points of failure. HF requires ZERO infrastructure whatsoever, not even a satellite. That means that no matter how far apart yapper 1 and yapper 2 are, you only have two devices to troubleshoot. There is a nice simplicity to that.
 
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