Interoperability on Fleetnet

[EJB]

The other night I was listening to the panic in the OPP officers and MTO down around Niagara with regards to snow squalls.
Is at all possible that the MTO crews,(not the inspectors in the 3800-4000's t/g's)
could possibly be able to talk with the OPP. At the time, trucks were jackknifed all over the road and the OPP had to relay messages to Orillia to the MTO.

 

[RainbowSix]

I know that the OPP and MOH have this Interoperability frequency in their mobile radios.

-148.6550 - CSQ

MTO crews do not have it though.

R6

 

[als_medic]

I've been a Paramedic for quite a while now and have never even heard of anyone using the INTERAGENCY frequency. I think most medics don't even know it exists. Don't know about the OPP, but done lots of calls when better communication would have helped and they never used it.

 

[hemi]

i have been waiting for those zone2 public safty t.g.s to pop up, but nothing yet

 

[slicerwizard]

Is at all possible that the MTO crews,(not the inspectors in the 3800-4000's t/g's) could possibly be able to talk with the OPP.

You can't patch analog and digital talkgroups together. Supervisors wouldn't go for it anyway - they want to retain their control.

 

[EJB]

You can't patch analog and digital talkgroups together. Supervisors wouldn't go for it anyway - they want to retain their control.

I dont get it Andrew. Are you saying you cant patch analog and digital comms toghether or that it is a workplace thing with supervisors?

 

[EJB]

I've been a Paramedic for quite a while now and have never even heard of anyone using the INTERAGENCY frequency. I think most medics don't even know it exists. Don't know about the OPP, but done lots of calls when better communication would have helped and they never used it.

Exactly my point. On Monday night it sounded to me like it would have been beneficial for the MTO crews and OPP officers to talk one on one rather than call dispatchers in orillia and wherever the MTO are dispatched.

 

[exkalibur]

The problem is training. Mostly on BMR's side of things. These people just do NOT know how to use their own system. They told paramedics doing training that they are unable to communicate with the OPP at all. This is just not true! There are already a number of talkgroups specifically for this purpose (PCSAF01 for example). MTO road crews should have access to those as well, but unfortunatly they do not.

Way to miss the boat BMR...

 

[slicerwizard]

I dont get it Andrew. Are you saying you cant patch analog and digital comms toghether or that it is a workplace thing with supervisors?

Sorry, I was in a rush when I posted that brief missive. As I understand it, we're talking about OPP officers who normally use digital talkgroups and MTO maintenance drivers who use analog groups, correct? I assume that the radios these MTO guys have won't do digital (except maybe in Zone 3, right? never mind...)

I don't believe analog and digital groups can be patched together - I don't see how it could work.

If the MTO radios could do digital, the drivers could switch to a digital group (not an OPP dispatch group - OPP brass wouldn't let that be programmed in to an MTO radio) and that digital group could be patched with the appropriate OPP dispatch group during these specific incidents.

Since the MTO maintenance radios won't do digital (in Zone 1, anyway...), their drivers and the OPP officers would have to switch to a common analog group. But now the cops are no longer in contact with their dispatcher and comms on that group probably aren't recorded. That's not going to fly.

 

[exkalibur]

That's why the MTO crews in Zone 3 are digital!

In all seriousness, if the analog/digital thing was an issue, the OPP could always throw in a bunch of analog talkgroups. They already have a bunch for exactly this purpose...they just never use them!

 

[slicerwizard]

But then the dispatcher would have her charges spilt across two groups (unless all of them switched to the analog group) and the audio would sound wierd and staticy (once you go digital, you don't go back)

 

[EJB]

Thanks Andrew & Mike for your insight.
It hapenned back in Octoberwhen Niagara got surprised with a ton of snow and again early this week.
Its too bad but this is probably when all users should be able to talk to each other.
What would they do in a legit emergency that effects all users on fleetnet?
Y'd think that they could talk to each other but with your insights I see why it would be quite difficult.
E

 

[polo_762]

On a similar line of thought, if analogue and digital talkgroups can't be patched together, how can a Fleetnet Digital talkgroup be patched to ProVoice? An example was seen a little while ago in Zone two when the Ottawa Police Service had to patch with the OPP during a chase....I thought ProVoice wasn't technically P25 compatible?

 

[slicerwizard]

It hapenned back in Octoberwhen Niagara got surprised with a ton of snow and again early this week.

Heard similar comms last winter where OPP officers kept calling for salt trucks to make repeated passes on the 401 from Bayview to Keele after a thin band of precipitation left that stretch covered in a frozen ice/snow mix. One officer was out on foot and she sounded a bit panicky as cars started bouncing off guardrails right behind her cruiser. Drivers were caught off guard as they transitioned at full speed from dry lanes to the ice/snow mix.

There were no warnings on the electronic signs (probably no supervisor on duty at midnight on a Saturday night to approve a hastily composed warning). They eventually put up the generic "Slow down in bad weather" canned message, but drivers didn't know they were approaching bad conditions, so they kept flying in at 120+.

Its too bad but this is probably when all users should be able to talk to each other. What would they do in a legit emergency that effects all users on fleetnet?

What they do now, I guess. Supervisory personnel call each other's dispatch centre. It's bound to be damn frustrating when the salt truck is right there in front of you and you want him to hit that offramp - ah screw it - he's passed it. It'll take 20 minutes to get him back here. By then, there'll be four wipeouts on it and guess who'll have to deal with them...

 

[slicerwizard]

On a similar line of thought, if analogue and digital talkgroups can't be patched together, how can a Fleetnet Digital talkgroup be patched to ProVoice? An example was seen a little while ago in Zone two when the Ottawa Police Service had to patch with the OPP during a chase....I thought ProVoice wasn't technically P25 compatible?

Inter-system links are usually done by taking analog audio from one system's channel/talkgroup and using purpose-built hardware to get that signal on to another system's channel. There are usually issues like delays (a user on one end keys up, then some time passes before a channel grant on the other system is made). That was a major problem when the Toronto police were evaluating a helicopter service; the patch took a full two seconds to connect the conventional channel the chopper was using to the divisional trunked talkgroups. Comms would go like: "S1 to Air 1, do you see my light?"; the chopper copper would hear "my light?" or "Air 1 to S2" would come over as "" and that would be the end of that.

Some linking products have programmable audio delays (store and replay) to alleviate this problem, but then users on both ends have to wait for the other guy to hear the delayed audio, then wait as his audio gets delayed on the return trip...


But - the patching we're discussing is not inter-system, it's just a feature of trunking systems that effectively makes the subscriber radios change talkgroups on command. But, an analog radio can't switch to a digital talkgroup.

 

[hastingsmedic]

Well...

I had this exact discussion with one of our EMS dispatchers. His comment was that with fleetnet, he could patch us through to anything except a Tickle-Me-Elmo phone. Our supervisor's Network portables have the capability apparently, but street medics are not privy to the technology. Essentially our EMS dispatch would phone OPP comms and arrange a patch on a tac channel. Cumbersome and time consuming at best. But that's the Government for you.

Hastingsmedic

 

[69stiles]

I've heard digital Fleetnet OPP patched onto Waterloo Regions' Edacs trunk system. Once in awhile they'll run it for a couple of days as a test

 

[jellotor]

Don't quote me on this but I think I recall a few people reporting a similar test on the York TRS as well, or maybe it was London. Either way, patches into other TRSes from/to Fleetnet are an uncommon occurance.