Interoperablity issues

[fireant]

http://www.monitoringtimes.com/html/MT-Editorial-Mar04.pdf

http://www.monitoringtimes.com/html/MT-Editorial-Nov05.pdf

Some good articles about the problems with Interoperablity issues facing departments as promised from tonights meeting.

fireant

 

[mam1081]

Pretty interesting reading. OKC's new system is even in the first article!

(on the wall of shame too!)

 

[dstew67]

Both excellent articles. The engineers here seem to have done a decent job to provide for interoperability, which was the whole reason given for the new system (already stated here numerous times). It's going to be interesting to see how things play out in the months and years to come. Hopefully, we won't have a disaster to test things out fully...

 

[mam1081]

That's the truth, but you never know when mother nature, terrorists, or high fuel prices will hit!


As for interop on the OKC system - yes, they have done an OK job for patching OCPD to the other acengies, but what if the other agencies want to talk to OCPD? Do they have to tell their dispatchers to call OCPD to tell them to turn one of their radios over to that channel? Sounds about like how it is now.

Since all the "insiders" like the system so much, let's just assume the system is going to work great. How many other municipalities do you think will jump in on this EDACS system? That would be much more interoperable (however, getting Edmond, Norman, and the STATE to give up their beloved MOT system could be interesting). We'll see what happens.

It's not that EDACS isn't interoperable - it only is if it's the odd guy out. If everyone else is using a standard (which they aren't - see VHF, UHF, and 800 stuff - all analog though), then going against the grain would be a bad idea. Maybe OKC is trying to set the standard?!? (hahaha)

Analog is interoperable (and cheaper!). Just so long as the bands are the same.

 

[studgeman]

The problem with interoperability is it costs money. One of the big 2 system suppliers have given enourmous price breaks to put in propritary trunking format and digital voice systems. Politicians are more concerned with the bottom line than doing things right. Interoperabiliy involves purchasing equipment which will accomodate users outside of your own, higher channel capacity radios, extra repeaters etc. The other HUGE challenge to interopability is cross-jurisdiction coordination, actually planning system design to be interoperable. More spectrum is needed, there is no doubt about that, but generally the needs are in VHF or UHF, not in 7/800MHz. That is not to say 700MHz will not play an important role in the overall puzzle. In most areas of the counrty clearing T-Band would have been of better use. Dual band radios would help too, but that is another topic!

 

[mam1081]

I think the spectum they have now is sufficient. There are a LOT of channels out there. Plan the system accoring to converage area (repeater output and height) so it doesn't interfere with something else, and that would free up a lot of stuff (but cut down on the DX scanner listening!). People make 800 (and 700) out to be awesome. The size of the antennas is the only think I think is nice (hence the reason I use UHF on ham more than VHF).

 

[freqscout]

What about NPSPAC channels though????
All 800 systems in Oklahoma are on the same NPSPAC channels and all of them are programmed into each of the radios. So all "can" talk to each other. It is also government mandated that they be monitored by someone in that jurisdiction at all times.

These are non-digital (analog) traditional voter style repeaters in the OKC system. There are also the NPSPAC direct channels which are for non-repeater communication (ie:when one isn't available.). So there is an "interoperable" backbone in place that can supplement in the event of the entire city losing communications, similar to the old "Mutual Aid" direct frequencies that are limited by the same issues. This was how they probably communicated in New Orleans?. Since there were no repeaters NPSPAC direct was the ONLY next thing. Sounds like it worked if they were capable of talking to anybody else, the first step in interoperability.

Last year OKC lost ALL of its repeaters save one, Springlake, when the city's main fiberline connecting them all was accidentally cut. What resulted was officers going to a simplex channel and communicating via the base radio at the station and car radios. Where there were units out on foot they communicated with whoever could hear on direct and the relay person had to relay radio traffic if they needed to get out but couldn't. This worked.

Simplex is not a miserable end in itself. It is just what its name implies "simple"x. Keep in mind this is how all agencies survived for years prior to repeaters (I still like to think that we have evolved though). Simplex still works, versus nothing at all. Simplex can be modified through location/height to create a network that allows one to communicate with others somewhat reliably until the system's power/controller can be restored and put back into regular use.

 

[mam1081]

The NSPAC stuff should work hopefully, that is for everyone that has 800 stuff.

That still doesn't work if Moore, Midwest City, Del City, Nichols Hills, Village PD, Warr Acres, Bethany, etc... want to talk to OCPD. They are on VHF/UHF. That's just the "band" issue. There could probably be links from the UHF and VHF NSPAC channels to the 800 ones. I don't think those exist yet (and haven't heard of anything like that around), but if might be a good idea (provided all those agencies have the VHF/UHF NSPAC/MA channels in their radios).

One must also consider the end users. How many of those guys are going to know they can swap channels to listen to someone else? How many that do know actually will do it rather than go through dispatch like years past? hmmmm....

And yes, I believe New Orleans used ONE NSPAC repeater for the whole city after the hurricanes. I heard M/A Com was there the day after the storm, but the National Guard or Police wouldn't let them into the city to go check on the site. It did have a back-up generator, but there was some debris that penetrated the radiator on the engine (effectively shutting it down). That's the problem with one site. OKC at least has multiple sites.

 

[dstew67]

Yeah, I think that all NPSPAC channels are all programmed both in simplex and repeated modes are a good thing. However, like you said Mark, it takes the guy using the radio being trained so they know they CAN do that. Too many guys right now don't even know which VHF channels they have. They know the four dispatch channels, and channels 5, 11, and 13 (800), but knowing what makes up the rest of their 15 channels is lost on some. A couple people officers I've spoken to who don't have an interest in radio seem to recall that they have a mutual aid channel, but have no clue which one it is.

 

[freqscout]

You know Dave you are right, many don't know. To be honest I forget which one it is too sometimes... 14 I believe... or maybe 12. We just don't use them much. Now that there is an alpha label and we have been informed that the I CAL... channels are for interoperability outside of our primary system we are already to an advantage. We were told in my original radio class that we have a mutual aid frequency and that we basically just don't use it. I used it once when I went to Okarche to pick up an ADW suspect. We were able to talk back and forth as needed, which really wasn't much since we were already talking on the phone. It was nice to be able to talk to them though, especially since our handhelds were out of range of the Hefner system (we could still hear, we just had to run back to our cars to answer..go go 100watt Rangr).

There is a portable option for creating a cross band repeater that could be employed in the event of a system wipe out. This is called a Tactical Communications Bridge ("TCB" for short, http://www.link-comm.com/security/about.htm for the webpage). We have two of them. They are equipped with our 800 radios and VHF and UHF radios for interoperability during disaster recovery situations. I can't believe I forgot about this since I am part of the ERT crew for it. We have two, I think, one for ERT and one for Emergency Management. The TCB's are fully portable in heavy duty flight cases and all you do is switch the radios to the right channels and then tell the controller which ones to bridge. Voila instant interoperability. Since they are attached to the ERT (Emergency Response Team) they instantly go where the disaster is. These TCB's are a part of the Homeland Security funding. I can't believe that I forgot about that!

 

[mam1081]

Well cool!

Just don't "forget" about those devices in a emergency!

 

[dstew67]

TCB's....maybe that could also stand for Taken Care of Business!!

Very cool. Thanks for that info!!

 

[fast2okc]

T M I

You guys are wearin me out.

--fast2okc

 

[freqscout]

Yeah, we haven't been training with them recently because Emergency Management has had them. Out of sight out of mind I guess. They are really neat machines. I saw them originally at Dayton Hamvention.
If you want to see a truly interoperable set-up look at the ECRV's (Emergency Communication Response Vehicles) that the Red Cross has now.
There is a java slide show at this link http://www.carvercountyredcross.org/ECRVWEB/ECRV_Chicago.html that has several grea pictures. They had these on display at Dayton as well. They can walk in and provide instant cellular service in a small area as well as digital service for high speed internet. The interface allows everything in the truck to link to anything else. There is also cases full of radios so that they can provide their own radio service in an area. That thing is a truly impressive setup.

 

[mam1081]

Found another interesting article. It seems M/A Comm tried to give their radios away, and an agency with moto radios wouldn't take it. I wonder if OKC could have waited out and gotten a bunch of stuff for free!?!?

Story copied from http://www.clarionledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060216/NEWS/602160373/1002/NEWS01

Director rejects radio donation
County official balks at 'big gift'

By Jack Mazurak
jmazurak@clarionledger.com



An offer to connect Jackson's and Hinds County's emergency radio systems with donated equipment was rejected by the county's emergency management director.

M/A Com, the company that makes the city's radio system, offered on Wednesday to give the county equipment to improve communications between emergency response agencies in the city and county.

But Hinds County Emergency Management Director Larry Fisher said he wouldn't accept the gift because the city's system is outdated.

M/A Com radios can not directly connect with the Motorola radios used by Hinds County and most surrounding agencies. The county and city have squabbled for years about whose system should be used and how to pay for upgrades.

But Alan Moore, an attorney for M/A Com, offered two cost-free possibilities to Jackson Mayor Frank Melton and Ward 1 City Councilman Ben Allen.

The first was to outfit Hinds County law enforcement personnel with M/A Com radios. The second was to install M/A Com's Internet-based software program on county dispatch computers to allow different agencies to talk directly to each other.

"The first proposal is very simple. You'd have two radios, not one, but you could talk. (M/A Com) could have the first shipment of radios in by the end of the week. For the second, it would require some more in-depth cooperation at the ground level," he said.

Fisher questioned the company's tactics. "That's a $1.5 (million) or $2 million gift. I'll take a coffee cup from somebody, but I'm not going to let somebody give me a gift that big," he said.

Hinds County Board of Supervisors President Doug Anderson said it's a good gesture. "That's a very honorable gift for the county but it won't at all change my recommendation to the wireless commission," he said. "We are recommending a Motorola system (for Jackson) and the Wireless Commission."

M/A Com's offer comes a week after the Hinds County Board of Supervisors voted to spend about $8.5 million to provide Motorola radios to Jackson Police and Fire departments. The system could be operational in a year.

The city administration had initially supported the purchase but Melton changed his mind because the state intends to build a statewide system.

The statewide system, being built by the Mississippi Wireless Communication Commission, will allow all cities and agencies to buy in, sign on and talk to each other. The system could reach Jackson in two to three years. The commission also plans to begin soliciting bids at its March meeting for the estimated $250 million statewide system - a massive contract either M/A Com or Motorola are likely to land.

Moore said the offer to the county does not in any way affect the state bidding process. And, because it is essentially a gift, the state wouldn't have to sign off on the transaction.

State commissioners plan to vote in March on whether to accept Hinds County's $8.5 million purchase plan. But Hinds County Supervisors, after Melton's change of mind, are considering a re-vote next week on the purchase plan, possibly opting to shelve it until the state awards a bid.

M/A Com's offer to the county could cut the Jackson-Hinds County issue short, but wouldn't allow Jackson to talk with surrounding cities.

Fisher said if Hinds County accepted the offer, it would in effect replace the county's Motorola system.

"I don't know of a company big enough to give that kind of gift without strings attached. It could be a way of Jackson locking in a system," Fisher said.

--end copy.

 

[fireant]

Came accross another interesting article that fits this topic pretty well. http://www.monitoringtimes.com/html/mt_interop_freqs.pdf

fireant

 

[OpSec]

Came accross another interesting article that fits this topic pretty well. http://www.monitoringtimes.com/html/mt_interop_freqs.pdf

fireant

It seems that in many parts of the county, esp. metro areas that have spiffy new 800 TRS', that you'd be hard pressed to find any politicians or department heads that would even look at that list, let alone believe it. Now that mother Moto and M/A-Com have been touting 700/800 TRS' as the greatest interoperabilityof all, many would think that those LB/VHF/UHF freq's are "unacceptable" regardless of any valid arguement that was presented.

 

[mam1081]

Check this out:

*start copy*


Latest News Update Posted on 2006-03-27 21:08:09New Orleans City officials have decided to replace their existing EDACS ProVoice system, with a new 700 MHz, Project 25 simulcast TRS. The state-of-the-art communications system, will be a fully-functioning subsystem of the Louisiana Totally Interoperable Environment (LATIE) TRS. Moreover, the new radio system will allow for total and complete interoperability with all public safety first responders across the state.

The decision to replace the current EDACS ProVoice System, manufactured by M/A-COM, comes on the heels of the disastrous events during and following the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina. Communications between the city and surrounding areas were cutoff, and the ProVoice system suffered a total and complete failure from the flood waters that immediately followed in the wake of this killer storm, leaving the City with no means of communicating to their public safety units. Therefore, the decision was made during the rebuilding process to completely replace the current radio system, with Project 25 technology that would be fully compatible with neighboring parishes and the rest of the state.

New Orleans City officials feel that it is imperative that all public safety units be on the same page with the rest of the state, to promote complete uniformity when a major disaster strikes. By becoming part of the LATIE TRS, this will take the city forward into the 21st Century, with a radio system that will allow a faster, more coordinated response for all agencies at the city, parish, state, and even federal levels, during a major crisis; hence, promoting a true interoperable environment for mission critical communications. These are lessons that should be learned by all communities across the nation, to prevent a repeat of what happened in the Crescent City last August 29th, and the many weeks that followed.


*end copy*

Not that I want anything bad to happen, but maybe someone (or something) just needs to accidentally destroy the EDACS system after a few years, and OKC will go with a more interoperable solution like New Orleans!

 

[woodyrr]

A Hypothetical

I guess that New Orleans and I have in common that we both have to learn our lessons the hard way. Congratulations to them!

I have a hypothetical situation that I have been curious about.

Suppose that when all of this started, Oklahoma City had set out among others, three objectives that the new radio system would satisfy. They are:

1). 100% APCO P25 compliance.

2). 100% integration and interconnectivity with the existing statewide DPS Smartzone system (in the mold of Tulsa, not like Edmond or Norman).

3). At a minimum, Public Safety communications to be digital and Public Works to be analog (although 100% digital is acceptable if P25 compliance requires it).

Would these objectives have been reasonably achievable or are they mutually exclusive.

 

[mam1081]

I belive you can get radios (they would have to be motorola though) that are backwards compatible with 9600 baud P25 trunking and 3600 baud (Type II motorola) to be fully compatible with OHP/Norman/Edmond/Tulsa.


And yes, to be on a fully APCO-25 compliant trunked system, all voice traffic is in digital (meaning public works and everything).


I think those are excellent guidelines! They seem like they could be reasonably achieved. And since everyone is all pissy about M/A Comm and ProVoice vs. Motorola and the price difference, the agengy puchasing such a system could still get bits from different manufacturers, since a 9600 baud TRS is not brand specific.

That brings to my mind another thing about ProVoice - it's proprietary, so down the road OKC will be FORCED to buy replacements from M/A Com. Not so with P25.