Is this a common misconception about on air ID requirements?

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Token

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The person who put up this video on YouTube (and posted it to the UDXF forum) appears to strongly think it is a requirement by regulation that you ID on air at the beginning and end of each individual transmission in a communication, basically every time you key the radio.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKpoYEMSU4c

Is this a common misconception for newer hams?

I understand it is a common practice on HF, and somewhat less on repeater operation. I am not talking about common practice, but actual regulatory requirement.

T!
 

W8VFD

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Sec. 97.119 Station identification.
(a) Each amateur station, except a space station or telecommand
station, must transmit its assigned call sign on its transmitting
channel at the end of each communication, and at least every 10 minutes
during a communication, for the purpose of clearly making the source of
the transmissions from the station known to those receiving the
transmissions.
 

n5ims

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Please note that the rules specifies "at the end of each communication" not "at the end of each transmission". It would be legal for a ham to have a series of short transmissions without giving their ID (so long as they don't reach the 10 minute limit or end their communication during those, which would require they give their ID). Obviously they would still need to ID at the start of the communication to be legal.

This conversation would be legal per the FCC ID rules:
W1ABC: K9XYZ this is W1ABC, are you around?
K9XYZ: W1ABC, this is K9XYZ. Hello Fred.
W1ABC: Hi Bob. Did you get much wind or hail this afternoon? We nearly lost a tree here.
K9XYZ: It was bad here, but we didn't get any damage. You need some help cleaning up?
W1ABC: No, just some small limbs and leaves. They're already picked up.
K9XYZ: Glad to hear that.
[they talk for a while, nearing the 10 min mark]
W1ABC: This is W1ABC for ID.
K9XYZ: This is K9XYZ for ID.
W1ABC: Don't forget the club meeting tomorrow night at 7 PM.
K9XYZ: Thanks for reminding me. I'll make sure it's on my schedule.
W1ABC: Lori said that dinner's ready so I'd better go eat before they scarf it all up.
K9XYZ: See you tomorrow evening then. Have a good dinner. I'll be clear on your final. This is K9XYZ.
W1ABC: See you tomorrow evening. I'll be clear and QSY to the dinning room. This is W1ABC.
 

W8VFD

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I don't say "for ID" when I give my call, your callsign is your ID so therefore it's implied.



Please note that the rules specifies "at the end of each communication" not "at the end of each transmission". It would be legal for a ham to have a series of short transmissions without giving their ID (so long as they don't reach the 10 minute limit or end their communication during those, which would require they give their ID). Obviously they would still need to ID at the start of the communication to be legal.

This conversation would be legal per the FCC ID rules:
 

n5ims

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I don't say "for ID" when I give my call, your callsign is your ID so therefore it's implied.
True, but saying "for ID" is useful to remind others that it could be time for them to ID as well.

One thing they do locally on some nets is have a group ID time every 10 mins of net time. By "group ID" I don't mean a single ID for the whole net, but more of a "On 3 give your IDs, 1, 2, 3, ...". While it's a massive multiple pile up of IDs (and nearly impossible to hear most of them), it allows everyone to ID their station without taking up lots of net time. I'm not sure that everyone talking at once giving their IDs goes with the spirit of the rule, it's how those nets make sure that everyone has a chance to ID to satisfy the every 10 minutes rule. They also remind folks to ID at the end of their transmission if they fail to do so on their own.
 

abear27

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I think operators like to say their call sign quite frequently... And yes, sometimes even with every transmission in an in-progress communication.
 

vagrant

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We take turns if there is a group of us, at 10 minutes. It allows everyone to see who's still around and who may have joined, so to speak.
 

teufler

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At events when we are doing communications for organizations, we use tactical calls. Then when we are finished we give call signs. Net has a morse code identifier that goes every 10 minutes. Hams have argued that we need call signs at the first but as noted, its not required, but not a mistake if you do.
 
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DaveNF2G

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The other regulatory ID requirement that would affect HF more than V/UHF is that each station must give both callsigns when passing international third-party traffic. For US hams, at least, that is the only time we are required by rule to give the callsign of the other station(s) in a QSO.
 

Token

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It's a common misconception, not just among newer hams but long time hams as well.
This is what I was talking about.

I am aware of the regulatory requirements, when you MUST ID (at the end of a communications or every 10 minutes during a communication). I am aware of the habit of some hams of IDing at the beginning and end of every, or almost every, transmission, and to tell the truth that does not bother me greatly. I will say that on HF, in a round table, I tend to throw my callsign and all the other stations involved callsigns at the end of every transmission, if for no other reason than to identify who I am turning it over to. In a one-on-one it depends on conditions.

What I am asking is how often are you running into people who think (incorrectly) it is a requirement, actually codified, that they begin and end each transmission with their callsign or include their callsign in each transmission? It has been a while since I took any of the tests, but I kind of remember that being one or two questions on the exams.

I don’t really have a problem with people over identifying, they seem to be balanced out by folks under identifying, but I do dislike seeing folks who think it is a requirement, without knowing the truth. The video I linked was an example, but what spurred the question was a local 2M simplex conversation in the last week where a mobile jumped in on our regular group round table and suggested we should all be IDing each transmission, because that was the rule, and we were all “in violation”. And no matter what we told this station about the contents of the rules he insisted we had to ID every transmission.

T!
 
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rapidcharger

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I will say that on HF, in a round table, I tend to throw my callsign and all the other stations involved callsigns at the end of every transmission,)))
I have a name for that.
I call that french kissing with callsigns.
You won't hear me doing that.

(((What I am asking is how often are you running into people who think (incorrectly) it is a requirement, actually codified, that they begin and end each transmission with their callsign or include their callsign in each transmission? It has been a while since I took any of the tests, but I kind of remember that being one or two questions on the exams.)))
I would be very surprised if those people actually thought they are required to ID that often. I think more often than not, they do so out of habit and they tend to do it (callsign-Frenching) on particular repeaters where that is the cultural practice but not on others leading me to believe they know it is not a requirement. It's mainly on repeaters with a high concentration of people who spend most of their time on HF. And I think they do it to help themselves memorize callsigns. If they do it over and over again, they memorize the callsign.
(((I don’t really have a problem with people over identifying, they seem to be balanced out by folks under identifying, but I do dislike seeing folks who think it is a requirement, without knowing the truth. The video I linked was an example, but what spurred the question was a local 2M simplex conversation in the last week where a mobile jumped in on our regular group round table and suggested we should all be IDing each transmission, because that was the rule, and we were all “in violation”. And no matter what we told this station about the contents of the rules he insisted we had to ID every transmission.
Well here's how I deal with it when someone sticks their proverbial tongue in my mouth to romantically intertwine our callsigns. I just don't do it back.
Usually within a few transmissions of not having me return with...
"[their callsign], [my callsign], [transmission], back over to you [their callsign], [my callsign]" but instead
"[transmission]"
they get the hint.

I guess save it for HF? I dunno.
I ID for the sake of IDing not for a filler of otherwise dead air and I use people's first names when directing traffic towards or passing it over to them in a QSO.

I'm not saying the way you do it or the way anyone else does it is WRONG. Just that this is how I do it. It may because I spend all my time on local bands and not on HF. (Not that there's anything wrong with that)
 
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k6cpo

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Please note that the rules specifies "at the end of each communication" not "at the end of each transmission". It would be legal for a ham to have a series of short transmissions without giving their ID (so long as they don't reach the 10 minute limit or end their communication during those, which would require they give their ID). Obviously they would still need to ID at the start of the communication to be legal.

This conversation would be legal per the FCC ID rules:
The Part 97 rules don't define "communication" so it's up to individual interpretation, Since the FCC doesn't seem to care much about ID requirements, except in those rare cases where an operator drones on and on, as long as one pretty much sticks to the ten minute rule, he should be fine.
 

n4yek

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True, but saying "for ID" is useful to remind others that it could be time for them to ID as well.
.
I was having a conversation with another operator one time and everytime he would say his callsign he always said 'for ID'.
In turn I would then say my callsign and say 'for Saturday'.
After a while of doing this, he asked me why I kept saying 'for Saturday'.
I told him I was just correcting him because he kept telling everyone it was Friday when it was actually Saturday.

Took him a minute but he finally got it, I don't think he ever said 'for ID' again after that evening.
:)
Something else operators need to do is slow down when they say their callsigns. Be proud of your callsign and say it so others, who might not know you, can understand what you are saying.
 
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WB4CS

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ID-O-Matic IV KIT Problem solved. Never worry about ID'ing again. :)

I run into it occasionally, where someone believes they have to say their call sign a bajillion times. I've even been "corrected" when I've jumped into an ongoing conversation without ID'ing "Blah blah you're supposed to ID when you start talking! Blah blah!" I just say "Go read your rule book."

There's one guy on our local repeater that says his at the beginning and end of every single transmission, even if the only thing he says is "Yes." Example: "You said the net was at 7pm tonight right?" Him: "Callsign Yep. Callsign."

What gets me even more riled up is those (mostly newer) hams that think amateur radio should be like police radios. "This is callsign to callsign." "Callsign to callsign, go ahead." "Meeting for lunch today?" "Affirmative. (Or QSL). Callsign out." STOP DOING THAT!!!
 

WB4CS

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Oh, and for those that say "For ID" all the time, when it's my turn to ID I say "This is WB4CS for redundant identification purposes." Get's them every time! :lol:
 

majoco

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I don't know how you start a 'communication' without using callsigns.

Do you just say "Calling Bob, this is Fred" and hope there aren't too many "Bobs" listening.
 

Jimru

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I was having a conversation with another operator one time and everytime he would say his callsign he always said 'for ID'.
In turn I would then say my callsign and say 'for Saturday'.
After a while of doing this, he asked me why I kept saying 'for Saturday'.
I told him I was just correcting him because he kept telling everyone it was Friday when it was actually Saturday.

Took him a minute but he finally got it, I don't think he ever said 'for ID' again after that evening.
:)
Something else operators need to do is slow down when they say their callsigns. Be proud of your callsign and say it so others, who might not know you, can understand what you are saying.

Your first point is funny, your second point, about saying the call sign slowly is, to me, very important!

I'm glad you brought that up!
 
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