Is this guy selling PDF & CSV files directly from RR?

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blantonl

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Well if he indeed is doing this - embedded within each PDF is the username of the person who did it. However, it looks like the auction has been pulled.
 

XTS3000

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So we all submit frequencies to Radio Reference (for free), and then our submitted info becomes the property of Radio Reference? Radio Reference then charges people to download this data. Hardly seems fair IMHO. I have stopped submitting frequencies, along with others I know.
 

n5ims

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So we all submit frequencies to Radio Reference (for free), and then our submitted info becomes the property of Radio Reference? Radio Reference then charges people to download this data. Hardly seems fair IMHO. I have stopped submitting frequencies, along with others I know.
Not exactly right. Members submit frequencies (and forum comments, etc.) to Radio Reference (for free) and by submitting them "the submitting user grants RadioReference.com the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, and display such Content" per the site's Terms and Conditons Terms and Conditions).

The submitted data is available at no charge to users to be used for "private, personal, non-commercial viewing purposes". To help pay the cost of running this site, they provide additional services by subscription through their Premium Subscriptions Premium Subscription Information Page (a better way to provide the data than make you pay for all access, you must agree.)

One of these premium services is one which allows the user an easier way to enter the information into their scanner. At no charge, they allow you to look the data up and manually enter it into your scanner, which for large trunked systems can be tedious and error prone. With the premium subscription, you can simply download this data through the premium web service that many scanner software programs can interface to help automate this process.

While it is your right to not submit frequencies, the logic you justified it by is somewhat like saying that you refuse to drive because somebody built a toll road so why should you pay for gas since that would force you to pay the tax for building and maintaining roadways.
 

SCPD

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Not exactly right. Members submit frequencies (and forum comments, etc.) to Radio Reference (for free) and by submitting them "the submitting user grants RadioReference.com the royalty-free, perpetual, irrevocable, non-exclusive, transferable license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, create derivative works from, distribute, perform, and display such Content" per the site's Terms and Conditons Terms and Conditions).

The submitted data is available at no charge to users to be used for "private, personal, non-commercial viewing purposes". To help pay the cost of running this site, they provide additional services by subscription through their Premium Subscriptions Premium Subscription Information Page (a better way to provide the data than make you pay for all access, you must agree.)

One of these premium services is one which allows the user an easier way to enter the information into their scanner. At no charge, they allow you to look the data up and manually enter it into your scanner, which for large trunked systems can be tedious and error prone. With the premium subscription, you can simply download this data through the premium web service that many scanner software programs can interface to help automate this process.

While it is your right to not submit frequencies, the logic you justified it by is somewhat like saying that you refuse to drive because somebody built a toll road so why should you pay for gas since that would force you to pay the tax for building and maintaining roadways.
I was going to say this too as anyone can create a FREE account.

One item and this has always bugged me. Butel writes many of the software programs for shack and other scanners. Radio Shack has their sales price also. then when the end user buys the scanner takes it home they can either hand program it or use butel software and PC program it. But that is a lot of work to do by hand. So they buy $50.00 software by butel then try and use Radio reference export. only to find there is another fee to use that which is what is referred to as a Radio Reference subscription. so, our $225.00 scanner becomes a $300.00 scanner if we want to use electronic programing. The Google syndication and advertising I think would generate a handsome income to keep this site alive, The donations for Premium membership I'm sure help as well. I just thing the Butel/Radio Shack/Radio reference thing is a monopoly, but that's just me.

To the original discussion Yes, the electronic signature embedded within a PDF document does offer 'some' protection and recourse to the original author. However, one with time can completely copy a pdf document and create a new pdf document with Their signature and security measures embedded into it. But seriously, that is an awful lot of work. Not to mention one needs a good working knowledge of Acrobat, Open Office, Word as well as artistic and graphic arts experience.

Unfortunately there will always be thieves and hookers for all of eternity, probably even drug dealers, forgery experts and organized criminals out to make a fast buck from someone else s painstaking work. But hey, if all of those lower class of people didn't exist, no one would want to buy a scanner to listen to the Police who go after them and then there would be no need to create frequency documents to sell on epay!
 

N2JDS

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It's still on ebay, best thing to do is invent a fake busline or fake hospital in some podunk town, with some freqs. posted on RR, buy it and see if it shows up in what he sends.

We used to use maps from a company that would put in an occasional fake road, and see if other map books showed that road. It was never a road that would cause somebody to get lost, but it defineatley caught me by surprise and I told them about it, and they told me they do this. Of course this was in the olden days too before you could get stuff off the internet.
 

b7spectra

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Auction is still up and running. What he appears to be doing is just what he says:

>You are bidding on a personally compiled list of radio frequencies in your county and counties surrounding it. The list will include groups such as Local and State Police, Department of Transportation, Fire, EMS, School Districts, Airports, Military, etc..

All known conventional and trunked frequencies in your county and surrounding counties will be included.

You will receive two files for each county on the CD. One is a PDF file which contains an easy-to-read, printable table containing all frequencies found in the county. The other is a CSV file which allows you to easily import all local frequencies into your scanner's programming software. <

Unless there is bogus information that RR is putting in their CD or on the web, I don't see him doing anything wrong.
 

n5ims

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Auction is still up and running. What he appears to be doing is just what he says:

>You are bidding on a personally compiled list of radio frequencies in your county and counties surrounding it. The list will include groups such as Local and State Police, Department of Transportation, Fire, EMS, School Districts, Airports, Military, etc..

All known conventional and trunked frequencies in your county and surrounding counties will be included.

You will receive two files for each county on the CD. One is a PDF file which contains an easy-to-read, printable table containing all frequencies found in the county. The other is a CSV file which allows you to easily import all local frequencies into your scanner's programming software. <

Unless there is bogus information that RR is putting in their CD or on the web, I don't see him doing anything wrong.
Except possibly for violating at least item 8 ("8. COMMERCIAL USE") of this site's Terms and Conditions (assuming that he hasn't gotten a license to use and market the info in that way from RadioReference.com LLC. "Any use of any of the materials on this site other than for private, personal, non-commercial viewing purposes is strictly prohibited unless a license is obtained from RadioReference.com LLC. The sale, auction, lease, loan, gift, trade or barter, or use of any of the text, database tables, table data, database schema, graphics, photographs, audio and/or video material, for any other purpose, in any form, media or technology now known or hereafter developed, including the use of any of the aforementioned materials on any other Web site or networked computer environment, without a prior written consent or official license for use from RadioReference.com LLC, is expressly prohibited."
 
D

DaveNF2G

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If Lindsey wants to pursue this, he can buy a copy and check it out. Small investment for an investigation that could generate significant punitive damages if it pans out.
 

Tweekerbob

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The auction lists this product now at a dollar more, and not-so-conveniently formatted to MS Word. Probably did away with the PDF file which included his user name.

Seems very odd, that as soon as someone mentioned this operation on RR, the original auction was shut down. Obviously, this person is a regular user of this site and with little doubt, poaches his info from here as well.

So now you have to pay a dollar more and you won't receive a "free" format like PDF; or a software friendly version like CSV. He may actually be doing Lindsay a favor by driving people to a Premium membership where they can then freely have both (provided they know about this site and don't have their head stuck in the sand).
 
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SCPD

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The auction lists this product now at a dollar more, and not-so-conveniently formatted to MS Word. Probably did away with the PDF file which included his user name.

Seems very odd, that as soon as someone mentioned this operation on RR, the original auction was shut down. Obviously, this person is a regular user of this site and with little doubt, poaches his info from here as well.

So now you have to pay a dollar more and you won't receive a "free" format like PDF; or a software friendly version like CSV. He may actually be doing Lindsay a favor by driving people to a Premium membership where they can then freely have both (provided they know about this site and don't have their head stuck in the sand).
He/She's obviously not the brightest apple in the basket. Because to snap a pdf to a word doc then back to pdf is easy. A solution for this is making all radio reference pdf files non printable and non copyable. This is simple to do in the permissions menu. And IF someone wants to download a copy, they have to submit a request, have an Admin approve it and now the download can be tracked better when it shows up on epay.
 

n5ims

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The new auction indicates that D Pelfrey is selling the CDs, but they've changed the wording so that they're no longer selling the information, but are now selling the "service" of searching for the information that's delivered on the CD or e-mail. This is probably an attempt to reduce the chance that RR management will take down their auction(s).

Since the copyrighted information is still being sent (reformatted or not), this probably doesn't go far enough to make things legal. Perhaps if they only send links to the data instead of the data itself it may get this "service" closer to being legal. Since D Pelfrey appears to be watching this thread and attempting to make their CDs legal, I suggest that they contact Lindsay C. Blanton III to make sure that they've done things right.
 

N0YFE

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Public Data and copyright

The new auction indicates that D Pelfrey is selling the CDs, but they've changed the wording so that they're no longer selling the information, but are now selling the "service" of searching for the information that's delivered on the CD or e-mail. This is probably an attempt to reduce the chance that RR management will take down their auction(s).

Since the copyrighted information is still being sent (reformatted or not), this probably doesn't go far enough to make things legal. Perhaps if they only send links to the data instead of the data itself it may get this "service" closer to being legal. Since D Pelfrey appears to be watching this thread and attempting to make their CDs legal, I suggest that they contact Lindsay C. Blanton III to make sure that they've done things right.

I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding the copyright issues with the data and format. Public Data can't be copyrighted and since most of the data posted on RR is considered public the only thing that is copyrighted is the format the data is presented. It would be a violation of RR Copyright if they are downloading the PDF from RR and copying to a CD and selling it.

If they are copying data from FCC sites and sending that out, or even making their own format for what they find from other sites, it could be considered OK.
 

gmclam

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Since I have always been a paid member here, I am not sure what non-paid visitors can have access to. The way I'd work this is to restrict the PDF or other "reports" to paid members only. And when people become paid members they have to sign a document stating it won't be sold/etc.
 

SCPD

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Its pretty easy really, A: become a feed provider. B: Know someone with a premium account. The likelihood of someone 'hacking' Radio Reference is slim to none, LB's a little too sharp for that. Unfortunately this stuff's going to happen. Not everyone who visits here or owns a scanner is an Honest member of society.
 

Citywide173

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SThe way I'd work this is to restrict the PDF or other "reports" to paid members only. And when people become paid members they have to sign a document stating it won't be sold/etc.
The only problem with this is that the information is not the property of RR, only the formatting. If this person is just downloading and selling the information exactly as it appears on RR, it's a copyright violation. If they change the formatting, there is no violation whatsoever. The map book example above is a great example....the data is readily and publicly available. Two mapmakers should have identical mapbooks using public data that is readily available, but one might add something to ensure their material isn't being copied verbatim. It's the same with any public database-as long as you don't copy the information that is part of the formatting, the public information is just that, public information and can be used, formatted and even sold as a person sees fit, so an agreement of this type still wouldn't bar someone from using the information.
 
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