Jersey City Police Active Shooter today, Multi Agency Response

[richee2000]

There were many local, county, state, PD's federal as well as NYPD on the scene of todays extended "active shooter" shootout that involved the fatal shooting of a Police Officer, and 5 others DOA . Bomb Squad from NYPD, ESU , NJSP, and Hudson Co SWAT on the scene with suspects UHaul that had suspected pipe bombs. FBI and ATF on the scene. I heard JCPD Comms as well as the NJSP Command Post. Wondering if anyone heard how all these agencies communicated with each other during this many hour standoff involving many agencies working together?

 

[railtrailbiker]

I was en route from Bergen County to Hoboken during the incident and Jersey City was broadcasting messages on SPEN 1 intended for other agencies at the scene. There were multiple messages advising responding personnel to move back from the intersection of MLK and Bidwell. I also heard Paramus advising that they were en route with an armored vehicle.

 

[Skypilot007]

Even with the millions of dollars spent on all these fancy radio systems, interoperability seemed to be a great challenge for all agencies responding. Every time I monitor a situation like this it's utter chaos on the airwaves most of the time. This time included. Local/County agencies have no idea what NJSP is doing and visa-versa, then throw NYPD and the Fed's into the mix. It wasn't pretty but they managed to get the job done.

 

[richee2000]

Even with the millions of dollars spent on all these fancy radio systems, interoperability seemed to be a great challenge for all agencies responding. Every time I monitor a situation like this it's utter chaos on the airwaves most of the time. This time included. Local/County agencies have no idea what NJSP is doing and visa-versa, then throw NYPD and the Fed's into the mix. It wasn't pretty but they managed to get the job done.

Add to that New Jersey Transit Police and Port authority police. When I travel elsewhere in the country I noticed how easy interoperability is between police agencies... Everything gets patched in and it works. Here in New Jersey it is still a mystery... Even with the New Jersey "interoperability' communications system

 

[IAmSixNine]

While im not from that area often times it comes down to 2 individual problems that come together.
1 poor or NO training of radio equipment. Your given a gun and training, a car with training and a taser with training. Plus re-training at periodic intervals. But many officers i have talked to were given limited to no training on radios.
2 Agencies with radio systems that dont practice or set up interop channels, or allow outside agencies on their systems and/or encrypted agencies not sharing keys. Also in this category are agencies that use conventional bordering agencies that use trunking and well you get the idea.
So when the S hits the fan the officers in the city where it happened are on the channel but then outside agencies stay on their channel or go to a swat channel for their city but dont know what channel to go to for the scene of the incident or cant find the interop channel that was assigned and well you get the idea.

 

[RESQ766]

Even with the millions of dollars spent on all these fancy radio systems, interoperability seemed to be a great challenge for all agencies responding. Every time I monitor a situation like this it's utter chaos on the airwaves most of the time. This time included. Local/County agencies have no idea what NJSP is doing and visa-versa, then throw NYPD and the Fed's into the mix. It wasn't pretty but they managed to get the job done.

I heard the dispatcher tell command that there were plain clothes FBI agents on scene who wanted to offer their assistance. I'm assuming the FBI agents communicated this to the dispatchers over the phone. There were also law enforcement officers everywhere so I would imagine the mutual aid officers who did not have a patch or Jersey City's channels were able to hear the radio communications from the radio's of nearby officers.

 

[ansky]

At one point I heard an officer tell everyone to move over to Tac channel "C2". I don't know what that could be.

 

[richee2000]

At one point I heard an officer tell everyone to move over to Tac channel "C2". I don't know what that could be.

The dispatcher told all ESU tactical personnel to switch to an encrypted tac channel

 

[richee2000]

Did anyone catch any Federal activity in the clear?

 

[Ant9270]

Listen, I hate to be this guy.. But I’m going to be. Interoperability is absolutely ESSENTIAL to accomplishing the “mission” However, yesterday I’m pretty sure the LEOs had a lot more to worry about then setting their portable to “tac-2” or one of the VTAC/UTAC/8CALL. Unfortunately, one of JCPDs own was lost. I don’t think now is the time to critique and say “poor training” was in play here. And actually, many academies do have extensive portable training before recruits are placed into the field. You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink. It’s up to the officer once they’re cut loose to familiarize themselves with their communication equipment.

 

[ten13]

heard the dispatcher tell command that there were plain clothes FBI agents on scene who wanted to offer their assistance. I'm assuming the FBI agents communicated this to the dispatchers over the phone

What's the matter with that?

The LAST thing you need at a situation like the Jersey City incident is a Tower of Babble taking place on the radio, and it was the reason why the Incident Command System was first set up.

If a department showed up in the middle of it all, they go to the first cop they see and ask, "Where's the Command Post?" Then they go in the direction the cop is pointing, and await orders (in this case, it was the South District stationhouse). Nothing else needs to be done.

At that point, access to radios or frequencies by the outside agency can be determined, if needed.

 

[RESQ766]

What's the matter with that?

The LAST thing you need at a situation like the Jersey City incident is a Tower of Babble taking place on the radio, and it was the reason why the Incident Command System was first set up.

If a department showed up in the middle of it all, they go to the first cop they see and ask, "Where's the Command Post?" Then they go in the direction the cop is pointing, and await orders (in this case, it was the South District stationhouse). Nothing else needs to be done.

At that point, access to radios or frequencies by the outside agency can be determined, if needed.

I never said there was anything wrong with doing it. I was only stating how the FBI was likely able to communicate with JCP.

 

[coolrich55]

I think the bigger issue is that we constantly hear that millions upon millions need to be spent on these new radio systems. And interoperability seems to be the number one reason given to get the funds for these systems. Does the PAPD have the capability of communicating directly with JCPD? And if not, shouldn't they? They've got a brand new fancy system.

 

[zerg901]

Interops can be hard. No one wants to tackle hard problems.

See the Massachusetts Forum for the NTSB comments about the interops comms failures at the Lawrence Mass gas explosions.

 

[fredva]

I can't speak to this specific incident, but I can't help thinking about when I first started listening to a scanner in the 1980's. Pretty much everybody used a low-band radio. The state had a low-band radio frequency that every sheriff's dept. could switch to in order to talk to each other if needed. State troopers had that channel too. I lived on a state border and a police officer from one state could change the channel and ask the sheriff dispatcher in the neighboring state to run a license from that state, or to assist in a pursuit into their state. There were certainly problems with low-band simplex, but in terms of interoperability, direct communications with other agencies was common. I will note that this was a rural area with several small towns.

Now, there is a lot more use of phones instead of radio, as in radio your dispatcher so he/she can call another dispatcher in the next county to get them to radio the other agency's officer helping you during an incident. This aspect doesn't really feel like progress.

 

[RESQ766]

Many

Interops can be hard. No one wants to tackle hard problems.

See the Massachusetts Forum for the NTSB comments about the interops comms failures at the Lawrence Mass gas explosions.

P25 systems are able to connect to other P25 systems via an ISSI connection which allows subscribers to interoperable between systems. The only thing is that both systems would have to be Phase II. If Jersey City has this implemented, users from both the county and statewide system would be able to communicate on the Jersey City talkgroups. Also, many systems have conventional simulcast channels for some of their talkgroups so that mutual aid resources who are not on their system are still able to communicate with those operating on that talkgroup. I am not familiar with the Jersey City system so I don’t know if they have implemented any of these or not.

 

[GTR8000]

Many P25 systems are able to connect to other P25 systems via an ISSI connection which allows subscribers to interoperable between systems.

All P25 systems are capable of ISSI linking; it's part of the APCO 25 standards.

The only thing is that both systems would have to be Phase II.

False. ISSI works with FDMA, TDMA, and mixed FDMA/TDMA systems. The whole purpose of ISSI is to facilitate the linking of systems, regardless of the manufacturer of the infrastructure, the brands of radios being used, or the modulation used on either system.

Also, many systems have conventional simulcast channels for some of their talkgroups so that mutual aid resources who are not on their system are still able to communicate with those operating on that talkgroup.

That's a real stretch to say that "many" systems have links between trunked talkgroups and conventional resources strictly for the purposes of interop or mutual aid. If you took a formal survey of how many P25 systems have the ability to deploy those sort of links, I think you'd find the number to be surprisingly low.


Interoperability should be a mindset more than something you throw technology at. There's nothing wrong with having a P25 system for your city or county, which in many respects can and does provide interoperability between agencies using those systems on a day to day basis. Those sorts of systems can bring agencies together who were previously using disparate systems or bands, and so they have value in that respect. However when it comes to large scale incidents where agencies outside of the normal operation of that P25 system are involved, the best practice for interoperability is to have a good plan in place beforehand. That's first and foremost, as you don't want to have to figure it out in the heat of the moment. It's also best to fall back to the lowest common denominator, which in many cases can be the use of simplex conventional channels such as the nationwide CALL and TAC frequencies.

Save the big fancy trunked systems for day to day ops, and have a plan in place with your surrounding neighbors, state, and federal agencies as to what common channels are going to be used when the $#@% hits the fan.

 

[RadioChief55]

I know JCPD, FD and OEM have Mutualink, if other have it, they all supposedly can be linked together. However I don't know if it has ever been used.

 

[craneoperator99]

I know JCPD, FD and OEM have Mutualink, if other have it, they all supposedly can be linked together. However I don't know if it has ever been used.

Is this a conventional FMN repeater?

 

[RadioChief55]

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