Just a thought.. (Citizen to Agency via radio)

[Phantom1989]

MURS frequencies are limited on the output power they can have so your friend already is afoul of the law by using those in a mobile radio.

2 watts to be specific, I know. The radio was set up and installed in the truck before he was hired so it's possible that a licensed radio engineer took care of the RF power output. My friend, howerver, programmed the VHF fire department frequency into the radio for RX himself.

 

[scannerboy01]

It is never a good idea to transmit on a frequency that you are not authorized to transmit on unless it an extreme emergency such as officer down. Transmitting on those frequencies could get you in lots of trouble with the FCC and the agency's whose frequency that you are transmitting on.

 

[SARCommCoord]

My other concern with that,is here locally,we have security officers who ride around in police looking vehicles,and the monitor our local pd/fd and show up on scenes where they are not wanted.They usually also always ask patient information under the guise that its "for their report".
If your friend is working security,he needs to monitor his own channels while working...

 

[Phantom1989]

My other concern with that,is here locally,we have security officers who ride around in police looking vehicles,and the monitor our local pd/fd and show up on scenes where they are not wanted.They usually also always ask patient information under the guise that its "for their report".
If your friend is working security,he needs to monitor his own channels while working...

I know what you mean. The truck my security friend drives is a white F-150 with a blue and yellow LED light bar on the top that is to be used in the parking lot only; but you could easily mistake it for a police unit because the company logo is only on the left side of the tail gate. They also have a Ford Taurus in their fleet with a dash mount light and black rims, no company insignia on it at all.

Vehicles like these can be mistaken as unmarked police units.

 

[W8RMH]

My other concern with that,is here locally,we have security officers who ride around in police looking vehicles,and the monitor our local pd/fd and show up on scenes where they are not wanted.They usually also always ask patient information under the guise that its "for their report".
If your friend is working security,he needs to monitor his own channels while working...

For one thing, he has every right to listen to the local authorities. In the private sector one is not usually notified of responses to their property and monitoring public safety comms may be the only way. Also don't forget that most of these security officers are working as an agent of the "property owner" or management, and have every right, if not a requirement, to respond to calls in their areas of responsibility, and to obtain such information for the owner of the property, in case of liability issues.

I do, however understand patient confidentiality is an issue. I would obtain the patient's permission to release their information first, if requested.

Don't "profile" all security officers as being the same. Many are former/retired police officers or firefighter/EMTs, with a lot more experience than you think.

 

[W2PMX]

There are still the provisions of the FCC law that ENTITLES and individual, to transmit on ANY frequency if it is to prevent death or injury, or the loss of property.

That's just the US complying with treaties to which it's signatory. International law states that the person declaring a mayday (legitimately, of course) "owns" the frequency for the duration of the emergency. This isn't just for amateur frequencies - it's for any electromagnetic communication that falls under the law. If the police dispatcher doesn't like the fact that a civilian is reporting an officer in need of life-saving assistance, he could find himself in trouble with the feds.

BTW, "the locals" can't legally do anything - local "government" is actually a corporation in the eyes of the law, it's not a government entity. It has no standing in matters of this sort. (Local governments have to abide by international treaties the same as Mr. John Q. Public does - they don't get to decide what parts of a treaty they agree with.)

 

[Nap]

USA:

[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 47, Volume 5]
[Revised as of October 1, 2010]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 47CFR97.405]

[Page 615]

TITLE 47--TELECOMMUNICATION

CHAPTER I--FEDERAL COMMUNICATIONS COMMISSION (CONTINUED)

PART 97_AMATEUR RADIO SERVICE--Table of Contents

Subpart E_Providing Emergency Communications

Sec. 97.405 Station in distress.

(a) No provision of these rules prevents the use by an amateur
station in distress of any means at its disposal to attract attention,
make known its condition and location, and obtain assistance.
(b) No provision of these rules prevents the use by a station, in
the exceptional circumstances described in paragraph (a) of this
section, of any means of radiocommunications at its disposal to assist a
station in distress.

Canada:

Similar rules, an amateur radio station in distress may use any means of radiocommunication. Just beware that if it was not really justified (there was no immediate danger to your life or persons nearby), it will cost you $25,000 and/or 1 year in jail.

 

[zz0468]

Oh, god... here we go again. :roll:

...How would the dispatcher on the radio even react to such a thing (if not simply tell you to get the hell off their frequency and use a phone)? :s

A good possibility is that the call would be treated as a hoax, and malicious interference.

 

[Nap]

A good possibility is that the call would be treated as a hoax, and malicious interference.

Correct. But at least you tried. Remember that you were supposed to be dying when doing this.

Of course, if they were part of an agency whose objective is to respond to emergency situations, there's also the chance that they could get charged. It would be under "negligent homicide" or something like that. Some unprofessional 911 operators already went through that.

 

[zz0468]

...Of course, if they were part of an agency whose objective is to respond to emergency situations, there's also the chance that they could get charged. It would be under "negligent homicide" or something like that.

The agency's lawyers would put up a good fight over that one. Blowing off an emergency call on the phone is one thing. Having some unauthorized and unknown person calling in on the radio is another matter entirely. A lot would depend on how coherent the distressed caller was, and if a location was easily obtained. And under those circumstances, a good cop would probably roll in ready for an ambush, further slowing the needed response.

You see the problem here?

Years ago, I was unlucky enough to hear a distress call on Marine channel 16. It was a man claiming to have been kidnapped, and then shot, on his boat off Santa Barbara. (google 'Chronic B*tcher' and 1979 for a link to the story)

A bunch of us were sitting around listening in amazement, but almost 100% sure it was a hoax. It just didn't sound real. The Coast Guard did take it seriously, especially since it was on the distress and calling channel.

Now take that same sort of call and put it on a police or fire channel, where the normal call intake is done by telephone. Would it be negligence to assume a hoax? I don't know... We sure thought it was, until the papers hit the next day.

Some unprofessional 911 operators already went through that.

All of those cases that I'm aware of involve calls received via telephone.

 

[Nap]

Now take that same sort of call and put it on a police or fire channel, where the normal call intake is done by telephone. Would it be negligence to assume a hoax? I don't know... We sure thought it was, until the papers hit the next day.

If your telephone works then sure use your telephone first.

But we're discussing extreme situations here where going on their frequency is an act of last resort. Let's see, a tornado just swiped your location, power outage, cell tower is down, police station runs on generators, then after 10 minutes they hear you on their frequency asking for help, describing that you're in your car at such location, crushed by a tree, you can't feel your legs, and you can smell a strong odor of gasoline. Would it be safe to assume a hoax?

 

[zz0468]

If your telephone works then sure use your telephone first.

But we're discussing extreme situations here where going on their frequency is an act of last resort. Let's see, a tornado just swiped your location, power outage, cell tower is down, police station runs on generators, then after 10 minutes they hear you on their frequency asking for help, describing that you're in your car at such location, crushed by a tree, you can't feel your legs, and you can smell a strong odor of gasoline. Would it be safe to assume a hoax?

No. But in less extreme circumstances, it might be.

The problem with these debates is that there is no one-size-fits-all answer that would satisfy everyone. There are people who state that they would have no hesitation to call for help on a police frequency. Your example is an extreme one, where it would certainly be justified. The OP mentioned in his original post using the radio to report a serious crime. That's far more in a gray area then your example.

 

[Nap]

The problem with these debates is that there is no one-size-fits-all answer that would satisfy everyone.

Agreed. It depends on context.

 

[n5ims]

No. But in less extreme circumstances, it might be.

The problem with these debates is that there is no one-size-fits-all answer that would satisfy everyone. There are people who state that they would have no hesitation to call for help on a police frequency. Your example is an extreme one, where it would certainly be justified. The OP mentioned in his original post using the radio to report a serious crime. That's far more in a gray area then your example.

I think that the only "one-size-fits-all answer" would be something like "“You should exhaust all other available means to call for help and use an unlicensed frequency only if absolutely necessary and be prepared to personally accept any and all repercussions for those actions prior to taking them.”

While using your personal radio on a police channel to report your emergency may be allowable by FCC regulations, the agency whose radio frequency you used may not be see it solely through that loophole. Although you may not have your ham (or other FCC issued) license revoked, you may still be prosecuted under local or state laws for things like “interfering with police communications”, “having a radio with ‘the ability to transmit on, a public safety radio system’”, or several other applicable statutes.

Remember that during a true emergency where all other means of communications have been wiped out, the authorities are probably really busy dealing with the disaster (and quite likely issues with their own communication paths being wiped out as well). Your call on their frequency, while important to you, may put many other lives at risk. If the situation is truly serious enough for you to be reporting it using a public safety radio channel it’s probably also worth the risk of any prosecution associated with using that method to report it. If not, don’t do it since by your own admission, it's not worth the risk.

 

[Nap]

I think that the only "one-size-fits-all answer" would be something like "“You should exhaust all other available means to call for help and use an unlicensed frequency only if absolutely necessary and be prepared to personally accept any and all repercussions for those actions prior to taking them.”

Agreed. That's the spirit of the law too.

One difference I noticed between US and Canada is that here we have a strong separation of the legislative power of federal/provincial/municipal levels. I.e. the competences of each are well defined and if radio communications are of federal authority, provinces and municipalities can't have any say about it.

 

[phillydjdan]

On 9/11, after the first tower collapsed, a civilian jumped into the cab of a firetruck under a pedestrian bridge. He was trapped by the falling debris. He picked up the radio mic and called for help on the Manhattan frequency. It's on the radio tapes. The dispatcher handled it like a pro, asked the guy where he was, then told him to stay calm and that help was on the way. In situations like that, I highly doubt anyone on the planet is gonna bust the guy's balls. Just food for thought.

 

[radioman2001]

What I find interesting is that everybody is Monday morning quarterbacking hypothetical situations here. No the local authorities CANNOT prosecute an individual who truly believes that his life is in danger or to protect property and uses a frequency he/she is not licensed for. The standard is what an average person would do in a particular situation, now all the naysayers posting are professional emergency service workers PD/FD/EMS etc. You are not the average person, so you can't decide this. If a local authority wants to prosecute that may be covered under their local law, they can try, but if the prosecuted person informs the court that what he did is outside the locals jusidiction and is covered by Federal FCC law. That court is SOL. No I am not talking about clear interference, I am talking about a situation where an average person,doesn't have the facilities or capacity to handle the situation and calls for help on a frequency he/she is not license for.
Get used to it, it is Federal law.

 

[PJH]

I didn't see it mentioned, but I am pretty sure its still in the FCC regs that an unlicensed frequency CANNOT be programmed into the radio, even RX IIRC.

Modifing a HAM radio to go out of band is also violating its type acceptance as well, so that argurement is out. It was quoted well in batlabs a long time ago with similar "what if's". Most people didn't think that even RX was outlawed, but at the time it was/is.

When I have time at the airport tomorrow, I'll try to look it up.

 

[MississippiPI]

I have heard myself times when citizens here in Jackson, MS had used the officers radios when it was an actual emergency and the help was appreciated; other than an actual emergency there could and probably would be serious consequenses.

Be safe

 

[ffemt601]

I didn't see it mentioned, but I am pretty sure its still in the FCC regs that an unlicensed frequency CANNOT be programmed into the radio, even RX IIRC.

Modifing a HAM radio to go out of band is also violating its type acceptance as well, so that argurement is out. It was quoted well in batlabs a long time ago with similar "what if's". Most people didn't think that even RX was outlawed, but at the time it was/is.

When I have time at the airport tomorrow, I'll try to look it up.

Since when is a HAM radio type accepted?