kenwood VS motorola: All Call

[fract]

Hey everyone,
Here's the problem. We have some users that have switched over to Kenwood, with some users in the same area using motorolas. Kenwood salesmen have convinced the Motorola (XTL/XTS 5000) users that they HAVE to get the kenwoods, otherwise they will not be able to TX/RX on the All Call. Apparently, Kenwood has been able to skirt the APCO P25 rule with this feature, which is making the Motorola users VERY nervous. Has anyone any experience with this? We intend to do testing, but I'd like as much info as I can before wading into this. Thanks for any and all comments!

 

[code3cowboy]

Are you using a P25 system? Are you referencing MDC1200? fleetsync? P25?

Which model kenwoods are you using?

 

[davidgcet]

if the system is P25 then any P25 capable radio on that frequency band will work on it for any P25 spec'ed feature. BUT each manufacturer can enable non-standard features which work best or only with their radios, that is all part of the standard. M does the same thing for their ASTRO 25 systems, there are a few bells and whistles that to fully utilize the subscriber unit needs to be M as well.

 

[fract]

Okay, here's the dealio: WE are NOT in control of the user that are upgrading to the Kenwood, which I think is to the TK 5710/5810 HBK. We are not using MDC, but we don't know what, exactly, the Kenwood 'All-Call' is supposed to be, do, or why (or if) it excludes the Motorola XTS/XTL 5000's. Like I said, we have a test scheduled, but I just wanted to know what anyone else knew about it before it took place.

 

[code3cowboy]

It sounds like your "all call" is designed to page everyone on your frequency. If it is not sent out in quick call (two tone), single tone, DTMF, or the P25 selective call, the kenwood users are SOL. If it goes out in one of the preceding formats, they are fine.

 

[dmonty83]

...

I typed "all call" into the help file in the KPG-95D FPU, which is the programming software for a TK-5X10 series of radios. I didn't come up with anything... Can you elaborate?

I work with a mix of Kenwood and Motorola P25 radios there really isn't much functionality that would prevent a radios from talking to each other.

David

 

[areawidecomm]

kenwood vs motorola

i think what you are saying is that an all call transmission is going out in the analog mode to set off pagers also. kenwood p25 radios work in full mixed mode i.e. they will transmit out in the format recieved if programmed to to so so if your in p25 mixed mode and hear a analog page out you cand repond back in analog mode for a predetermined time set in programming. the motorola xts/xtl will only recieve the analog transmission when programmed in the mixed mode they cannot switch transmit format. this info came straight from motorola tech support and i quote " the xtl 5000 is not smart enough to switch transmit format" end quote. so if you have a apprx. 2500 dollar xtl 5000 it cannot do full mixed mode operation were as the 1000 dollar tk5820/5720 works smoothly have a local pd using it now.

 

[fract]

Not sure

The info that I am getting is from a Client (in an extremely remote area of the world) who knows only what the kenwood saleman told him. That basically he needed to change his systems from motorola to knewood, otherwise, when an 'All Call' went out, he and his staff would NOT hear it, and then the Skyte would impact with the rotating occillator. I am not even sure if the Kenwood feature/mode that is supposed to be incompatible with Motorola is termed 'all call', that what HE called it. Our shop has not (as of yet) had the budget to obtain a kenwood system in order to test, and It looks like all the other client bases were also going through the same change. So, I will keep y'all posted when any solid facts/conclusions are made.

 

[Jay911]

Could the salescritter be referring to ATG (All Talk Group), or whatever the P25 version of it is?

I'd be rather leery of anyone telling me I *must* get their brand of radio or else XYZ is not going to work. I would go to the system manager (the guy or girl running the radio system I intend to use these radios on) and find out precisely what is being built in the system, and take that back to the Kenwood guy with a "whatchu talkin' 'bout, Willis?" look on my face.

I am awaiting a P25 system imminently to be built in my area, and have been assured over and over that it will be a pure, adhering-to-standards system - meaning that any P25 radio should be able to operate on it. So I've been keeping my eye on conversations like this.

I had a rumor go around a couple years ago that another local group was sold a TRBO system on the promise that it would be compatible/upgradable with this new P25 system... :roll:

 

[fract]

"Salescritter' is the right term

Could the salescritter be referring to ATG (All Talk Group), or whatever the P25 version of it is?

I'd be rather leery of anyone telling me I *must* get their brand of radio or else XYZ is not going to work. I would go to the system manager (the guy or girl running the radio system I intend to use these radios on) and find out precisely what is being built in the system, and take that back to the Kenwood guy with a "whatchu talkin' 'bout, Willis?" look on my face.

I am awaiting a P25 system imminently to be built in my area, and have been assured over and over that it will be a pure, adhering-to-standards system - meaning that any P25 radio should be able to operate on it. So I've been keeping my eye on conversations like this.

I had a rumor go around a couple years ago that another local group was sold a TRBO system on the promise that it would be compatible/upgradable with this new P25 system... :roll:

This was our first thought. However, there is no system manager, in any real sense, that we can query. There's a guy to keep track of the equipment, but he knows nothing about it. If it breaks, he calls back for us. TO add to the drama, we now have a guy that sez the problem is all fixed with the addition of a little box on the Kenwood, which will make everything compatible with motorola. BTW, this is not a trunked system, for anyone wondering about that.

 

[tbiggums]

BTW, this is not a trunked system, for anyone wondering about that.

That's exactly what I was wondering about...

Since this is P25 digital conventional, they must be referring to the "all call" talkgroup of 65535. Any P25 radio can be programmed to transmit this talkgroup value.

In P25 conventional, the radios can be programmed to use "normal squelch" or "selective squelch". With "normal squelch" (or "Squelch Type=NAC" as Kenwood calls it) the radio unmutes on any transmission with a matching NAC, regardless of talkgroup.

When all the radios on a P25 conventional system are programmed to use "selective squelch" (or "Squelch Type=Selective Call" on Kenwood radios), they only unmute when the NAC and talkgroup ID's match, or the matching NAC and all-call talkgroup is heard. Pretty much any P25 conventional radio can be programmed to do this, with the exception of maybe some really old (like 10+ years old) EF Johnsons or something.

Again, all of this only applies to P25 digital conventional. P25 trunked is different.

 

[code3cowboy]

If he is saying a kenwood with a box will work with the Motorola system, he is talking about MDC1200 or some form of encryption.

 

[fract]

He sez it's a 'conversion' box

"If he is saying a kenwood with a box will work with the Motorola system, he is talking about MDC1200 or some form of encryption. "

The email snippit I have is " Seems the conversion box issue is solved and being installed where necessary. All P25 radios should have no problem communicating, but they are executing on a as-by-case basis."

Now, remember most the people dealing with this problem are NOT radio guys. I am not sure if they know the diff between waveforms, systems, or analog, digital, or system options. I say that to say this: I am not sure if the terms being used are Kenwood tech terms, Kenwood sales terms, non radio custodian terms, or other. If any of you out there (a lot, I'm sure) have run into someone just claiming that their equipment is broken, doesn't work, is not reliable, only to find out that the antenna was snapped off six months ago, and they either didn't notice or didn't tell anyone, knows what's going on here. So, just an update for those you who care or are watching a mixed equipment area. We've not gotten a date to see the 'box', but when I know more, you'll know more.

 

[jim202]

"If he is saying a kenwood with a box will work with the Motorola system, he is talking about MDC1200 or some form of encryption. "

The email snippit I have is " Seems the conversion box issue is solved and being installed where necessary. All P25 radios should have no problem communicating, but they are executing on a as-by-case basis."

Now, remember most the people dealing with this problem are NOT radio guys. I am not sure if they know the diff between waveforms, systems, or analog, digital, or system options. I say that to say this: I am not sure if the terms being used are Kenwood tech terms, Kenwood sales terms, non radio custodian terms, or other. If any of you out there (a lot, I'm sure) have run into someone just claiming that their equipment is broken, doesn't work, is not reliable, only to find out that the antenna was snapped off six months ago, and they either didn't notice or didn't tell anyone, knows what's going on here. So, just an update for those you who care or are watching a mixed equipment area. We've not gotten a date to see the 'box', but when I know more, you'll know more.

Well we have a real good issue of a snake charmer laying his talent on the end user and the normal bs that goes with the pitch. The end user is only understanding the slick pitch that says Motorola radios can't, won't or aren't able to do xyz, so you need to use my radios that can. With a meal and some soft foot dancing, you now have the customer eating out of your hand.

This is about normal with most users and they don't have enough smarts to at least ask some questions from a 3rd party that may be able to shed some real technical expertise on the matter and save them a bundle of money along the way.

 

[n5ims]

You could just tell that salesman that since according to him the Kenwoods are not compatible with the existing Motorola equipment the chiefs have made a rule that they will be banned from the system due to this incompatibility and all of the new Kenwoods must be returned for a full and complete refund, including all installation costs and any existing Motorolas that were removed must be reinstalled at his expense.

Since the above will no longer work since they say that the "box" will make things work, you really need to get the make, model, and installation instructions for this "box" to "allow you to include it in all future specs for any system expansion". This will allow you to do two things, first (and most important if it is actually something required) protect your investment and allow you to expand (or replace damaged equipment) without issues in the future, second pass this info back to this thread so we can see what the "box" actually does and help discover the BS factor of his claim. If the BS factor is too high, you can then remove this vendor from your "approved vendor" list.

 

[code3cowboy]

This thread is worthless without tech specs.

 

[fract]

"This thread is worthless without tech specs."
Codecowboy, I can't agree with you more. The test is set for this Thurs and Fri, so we can get a look at the 'box', but we've not been contacted by anyone as to what time is it and where it is. I don't even know what model kenwoods they are using and which features/options they are using them with. It's almost like congress where 'We have to pass the bill to know what's in the bill." Only we have to buy the system/conversion/etc, to find out what it does. Yes, I agree that this a snake in the grass. And IF, IF, I get to go to the test, I will put every detail on here. Just for now, I'm whistling in the dark...

 

[code3cowboy]

Look at the box and while you are checking the damn thing for magic smoke, take pictures.

 

[fract]

A few more facts

Our division boss, who thinks that contingency comms is a cell phone, came forward with some details:
It's a conversion box that's installed at Dispatch. It will reconcile the Fleetsync and the AllCall in the case of a netwide announcement. I don't know if this is a prototype, but it sounds like one. I SUSPECT that it's of Kenwood manufacture. I know that Motorola is intent on ignoring the problem, and I've not heard of any aftermarket interests or efforts. Anyhow, the meeting is on, and I have NO idea if they will let us examine it or take photos at this time. Anyone even heard of something this wacky? When I know, you'll know. And thanks everyone for input, warnings, advice and etc.

 

[fract]

Surprise! It won't cost you a thing!

Okay, I know that some of you are still interested, so here it is. The conversion box turned out to be a Cimarron C plus II/e coder/decoder that reconciled Fleetsync to MDC. In the mixed model environment, an emergency call would have been put out on Fleetsync, then converted over by means of a keypad to MDC, connected at the dispatch radio.

C Plus II Display/Decoder from CIMARRON TECHNOLOGIES CORP.

Above is the link, for those of you in mixed model environments. So this big fat hairy deal turned out to be nothing at all. We don't even have to buy them, the dispatchers changing over to them are doing that. Anyone have any experience with the Cimarron Coder/decoder?