Khz vs Mhz vs Kc vs Mc

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mmckenna

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International System of Units is a good thing. Standardization of measurements and terms is a good thing.
Remembering the old days is a good thing, but it should never hold back progress.

Cliff Notes or "retirement for dummies" would be welcome, if you have the time.
 

KK4JUG

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Cliff Notes or "retirement for dummies" would be welcome, if you have the time.
Gee Whiz, thanks for the ideas but that sounds like work and that would detract from plans put into effect back in 2007. Roughly translated that means, not only "No," but "Hell, no," but thanks for the offer.
 

MUTNAV

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iscanvnc2 , Do you remember the early digital clocks, alarm clocks mostly, as I remember, which used flippy digits on little cards that flipped sequentially to show the time? It was purely mechanical. I also remember reading about other electro mechanical systems used for early digital displays, but they were not commonly seen outside of military and scientific gear because of price.
In 2003 at Germanys Frankfurt airport, the flippy cards were used for arrival times etc... on a big bulletin board.
ALSO BTW Nixie tubes were used as the display for mobile TACAN monitors for the TRN-26 at least in the early 2,000's.

1658001427240.png

Part of the reason for using Hertz vs. Cycles (at least in the military) was senior military people were getting confused when they were used interchangeably, a message was sent out to stop using cycles and to just use Hertz.,

Thanks
Joel
 

Token

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In 2003 at Germanys Frankfurt airport, the flippy cards were used for arrival times etc... on a big bulletin board.
ALSO BTW Nixie tubes were used as the display for mobile TACAN monitors for the TRN-26 at least in the early 2,000's.

Sure, but wasn't the AN/TRN-26 a late 1960's design that fielded in the early 1970's? Just going off memory there, but I seem to remember them (TRN-26) being a thing before 1975. So the continued use of Nixies into the early 2000's makes sense, if the equipment original build / design dates were Nixie era. I know of many instances where organizations, especially military's, still use 40+ year old technology today because replacing it with newer stuff would cost more than maintaining the old. As long as it does the job, I don't see an issue.

T!
 

MUTNAV

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Sure, but wasn't the AN/TRN-26 a late 1960's design that fielded in the early 1970's? Just going off memory there, but I seem to remember them (TRN-26) being a thing before 1975. So the continued use of Nixies into the early 2000's makes sense, if the equipment original build / design dates were Nixie era. I know of many instances where organizations, especially military's, still use 40+ year old technology today because replacing it with newer stuff would cost more than maintaining the old. As long as it does the job, I don't see an issue.

T!
The time frame you say sounds right. It actually is (was?) a super reliable peace of equipment (with constant tweaking).

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Joel
 

mikethedruid

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What, specifically, is it saying?

T!

Look carefully at the picture. Look at each of the three bands. What frequency term is used for the regular AM broadcast band up through the low police band? What frequency term is used for the Intermediate band? The shortwave band is calibrated twice, once in meters, and what is the term used for the frequency? ;)
 

Token

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Look carefully at the picture. Look at each of the three bands. What frequency term is used for the regular AM broadcast band up through the low police band? What frequency term is used for the Intermediate band? The shortwave band is calibrated twice, once in meters, and what is the term used for the frequency? ;)

So what it is saying is that there is not enough dial space to put kHz (or kc, at the time) on other bands and still be large enough font to read it? Or is it saying that tracking and the frequency indicator is not accurate enough to bother showing kHz, since you just have to guess at the actual frequency based on the dial indicator?


There is no doubt that most radio main dials showed shortwave frequencies in MHz, I said exactly that in my earlier post. Some bandspread dials showed it in kHz (or kc in the day) while others showed it also in MHz. Like this 1942 Hallicrafter SX-28:
172771646.bhl0SQIG.SX28_Bandspread.jpg



I think you have lost track of what you said at the beginning. You said "I actually go back to the days when we used kiloCYCLES, Kc for standard broadcast AM (540-1600 Kc) and megaCYCLES, Mc for shortwave." My response to that was "There is no "official" standard (within a hobby community) for when to switch from kc (or kHz) to mc (or MHz), but the general rule I was taught in the 1960's was that (assuming you knew the frequency with enough precision) it was expressed in kHz (or kc) below 30 MHz, and MHz (or Mc) above 30 MHz, until you got up to 1000 MHz when you shifted to GHz (or kMc)."


You seem to have taken exception to my saying the use of kHz (or kc) to reference frequencies on the shortwave bands was quite common and normal.


Lets look at some specific examples to see how shortwave frequencies were actually referenced on a regular bases.


At random I picked four past references that can be found online. I did not search for specific examples, these are the first four I found in a search when I started looking at broadcast schedule lists and reports of reception. The first four I found were an American SWL Club News Letter from 1970 ( https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-DX/Miscellaneous/American-Short-Wave-Club-1970.pdf ), an International Shortwave Listener (ISWL) Monitor news letter from 1965 ( https://worldradiohistory.com/Archi...ational-Short-Wave-League-Monitor-1965-08.pdf ), The ABC's of Shortwave Listening from 1962 ( https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-DX/Miscellaneous/SAMS-ABC's-of-Short-Wave-Listening-Buckwater-1962.pdf ), and the Manual of Shortwave Radio, Volume II, 1932 ( https://worldradiohistory.com/BOOKS...he-Manual-of-Short-Wave-Radio-Vol-II-1932.pdf ).


All of these resources reference shortwave frequencies, when actually listing frequencies and not just talking about radio dials, in kc or kHz.


American SWL Club newsletter, 1970:
172771647.KFygoXa1.American_SWL_Vol11_no2_1970.jpg



ISWL Monitor Newsletter, 1965:
172771648.gSmEVyLA.Monitor_ne_ug1965.jpg



The ABC's of Shortwave Listening, 1962:
172771649.e7tLtuK0.SAMS_ABCs__t_1962.jpg



Manual of Shortwave Radio, Volume II, 1932:
172771650.U8ZiX133.Manual_of__32_pg7.jpg




T!
 

MUTNAV

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I think some are getting waaay too serious here. Heck, I liked it because it was a "Magic Dial."

I liked the first dial because it showed the inverse relationship between frequency and wavelength. That's the education part I got out of it....

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Joel
 

mikethedruid

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I liked the first dial because it showed the inverse relationship between frequency and wavelength. That's the education part I got out of it....

Thanks
Joel

Yup, and that was only on the shortwave range. In those days, even on many simple AM broadcast band radios they showed both the frequency, usually in kilocycles, and the wavelength in meters, with the frequency at the top of the dial, and the meters at the bottom of the dial.
FADA 1.jpg
 

k7ng

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I was in Jr. High (now Middle School) when the official change from 'cps' (Mc/s, kc/s) to Hz came along. When was in the Navy a few years later, some Chiefs insisted on MHz and some on 'Mc'. All the manuals were still in cycles. Kind of a schizoid situation.

Quite a few years later, as a manufacturing/test engineer, I took part in interviewing prospective technician hires. I would tell them that I was only going to ask one 'technical' question. It was always, "How many watts is 40 dBm?" (I did that because I wanted people to know not to blow up my test instruments by confusing decibels and watts). I won't say anything about percentages right/wrong to protect the innocent.
Because different manufacturers' components were marked differently, I started emphasizing understanding pf/nf/uuf/mfd on capacitors and such. We had microwave (an inaccurate term if I ever heard one) products like up & down converters, so kHz/MHz/GHz conversion was easy enough for all concerned.

The senior techs thought it was all kinda funny and started talking about 'centibels'... I went along with that, figuring that it would be fine in the long run. I got it all to screech to a halt (briefly) when I used 'decabels' once. One of the techs knew where to look for information and came back in about 3 minutes with a big grin and the correct conversion. Finding out what 'dBrnc0' was took a little longer.
 

Token

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Quite a few years later, as a manufacturing/test engineer, I took part in interviewing prospective technician hires. I would tell them that I was only going to ask one 'technical' question. It was always, "How many watts is 40 dBm?" (I did that because I wanted people to know not to blow up my test instruments by confusing decibels and watts). I won't say anything about percentages right/wrong to protect the innocent.
Because different manufacturers' components were marked differently, I started emphasizing understanding pf/nf/uuf/mfd on capacitors and such. We had microwave (an inaccurate term if I ever heard one) products like up & down converters, so kHz/MHz/GHz conversion was easy enough for all concerned.

The senior techs thought it was all kinda funny and started talking about 'centibels'... I went along with that, figuring that it would be fine in the long run. I got it all to screech to a halt (briefly) when I used 'decabels' once. One of the techs knew where to look for information and came back in about 3 minutes with a big grin and the correct conversion. Finding out what 'dBrnc0' was took a little longer.

My initial system equipment (first operational in late 1950's) was still marked in Mc and kc up into the mid 1980's, and the manuals also contained both, but the rating tests were all in kHz, MHz, and GHz. The equipment markings never did change.

At our facility the engineers work closely with the field and maintenance techs, and I still do something similar to what you describe, except I generally ask "how many Watts is +27 dBm?" Most of our measurement equipment is good to +30'ish dBm or less, so I want people to have a concept of what that power level is. Obviously some is a great deal less, like say an HP 8484A (or whatever the current Keysight equivalent is).

Another very typical question from me for any of the new techs (until I get a feel for their habits) might be "what is your anticipated power level" before they hook up any test equipment. I don't care if they get it right down to the dB or not, but I want to make sure they have some concept of what kind of anticipated power level they might have before connecting any equipment. Coming off a +87 dBm transmitter with a forward port coupling of -50 dB, and trying to put that straight into a spec ann might cause a bit of a problem. If they know to anticipate +37 there, then they can make an informed decision on how to proceed. Obviously senior guys already either have those kinds of habits or they don't, but the idea is to start new techs building those kinds of basic thought processes.

T!
 

mikethedruid

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I've seen products of engineering schools who could handle all those equasions OK, but who couldn't solder worth a damn, especially when it involved having to use something stronger than a Weller WTCPT station, something like a Weller 8200 gun. Speaking of which, don't buy the new ones with the set screws to hold the tips. They suck. Buy an old one with the locking nuts, for which one can still buy replacements. they lock in the tips much better, and last much better.
 

mikethedruid

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Just be patient and wait for the gun to cool completely before you start turning the nuts.
Use a proper wrench, not a pair of pliers, and a PROPER wrench is better than the one which comes with the gun. That's even more important than waiting for the gun to cool completely. I just wait until it's cool enough to handle without burning myself. Good thing about those Weller guns... only the tip gets really hot... the mounting bars don't
Weller 8200.jpg
 

jhooten

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Use a proper wrench, not a pair of pliers, and a PROPER wrench is better than the one which comes with the gun. That's even more important than waiting for the gun to cool completely. I just wait until it's cool enough to handle without burning myself. Good thing about those Weller guns... only the tip gets really hot... the mounting bars don't
View attachment 124597

Yep, that is the one I have. The first thing I did was throw that stamped steel POS in the scrap metal bin.

I do need a new tip. I let someone, who should have known better, use it. He used acid core solder and didn't clean the tip. Ate it clean through. (Wonder how well his coax it holding up after using the acid core solder to put the connectors on.)
 
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