Lack of Interoperability

[mondaro]

Did anyone take note lack of interoperability yesterday between the State Police and the FBI ? It seems at times the right hand didn't know what the left was doing, I was a little surprised at this since it's been a while since 9-11 and one would think communications issues should have worked out by now.

Active Yesterday

Spen 1

NJSP

B2-05 5 Comm
B2-07 Car to Car
B2-08 Command Post
B5-07 North Star
B5-08 Aviation - Mercer Field

Air Com's also heard on

123.450 Misc Air to Air
130.070 NJSP Tac. Air Chanel
123.025 - TV News Choppers

Thanks in advance for any comments etc etc.

Tony M.
Harrison, NJ

 

[N_Jay]

Did anyone take note lack of interoperability yesterday between the State Police and the FBI ? It seems at times the right hand didn't know what the left was doing, I was a little surprised at this since it's been a while since 9-11 and one would think communications issues should have worked out by now.

No way.

It will be years before all the local/federal interop issues are resolved.


The issue is far bigger then most people conceive, both on the operational side and the technical side.

 

[SLWilson]

Doesn't matter!

It doesn't matter if they were ALL (FBI, city, county, dog catcher...) on the same frequency. When something like this goes down, it is complete and total CHAOS. The best that ANYONE can hope for is "controlled chaos" when the crap hits the fan.

As officers are responding from other areas to help, they are asking for any available information regarding the incident/situation.

As each NEW officer arrives, they ask for the same information.

To those "listening" in scannerland, it sounds like the field guys aren't listening. They hear the dispatcher or the Incident Commander "keep repeating" that same information over & over. But, again, that info is being given to the new units arriving.

Then, you STILL have officers that don't get the entire message, then end up doing something that (to the public) looks pretty stupid, but in reality, they just didn't have "all of the right information"....

Again, controlled chaos in the first several minutes to an hour is the best ANYONE can hope for on something like this. You have personnel from other agencies that don't know each other. Never even met. They are TRYING their very best to work together to get it done. In the end, they generally DO get it done.

Saw on CNN just minute ago where the last suspect from this was captured this morning...

Steve/KB8FAR

 

[kenisned]

Please consider that i'm am using generalities in my post.

In the initial stages it's going to be difficult. LEO's are trained to work individually and to use their judgement as they work. The nature of their work does not lend itself to waiting until things get organized. The bad guy went that way...go get em!

The key is Incident Command. The supervisors need to establish and start putting the units into a structure that can be managed. This is a foreign concept to most law enforcement as they don't get an opportunity to use it very often and almost never drill.

Fire and EMS are a bit better only because they use it far more often (although it varies from jurisdiction to jurisdiction). It also helps that a chief officer is one of the first to arrive and can establish the structure early on.

A good unified command post is the key as something like this develops. Get the key stakeholders in one place and they can communicate to their ops people based on the needs of the incident.

This is where the power plays start... fed vs state....pd vs fd.... etc. "I'm in charge..." This is how firefighters working on the highway get arrested!

The "tools" for good communication exist. Does a FED agent checking homes on a certain block have to be able to talk to an SP unit checking homes on another block? No, not necessarily. However, if they speak to the command post on their own channels, then the coordination can occur.

When I respond as a mutual aid fire chief to a town that is not on our band, I stand at the command post and speak to my guys on our channel.

Interop is a term that is often solely used to discuss the technology. However, it's important to understand that the human element is more important. Can we all work together? Of course, it's also the weakest part.

 

[mondaro]

Well let me tell you from a person in EMS for 25 years and the NJSP which I am a huge supporter of and what happen to me recently on the NJ Turnpike, We get called up there for for M/A from the town of Kearny an MVA, oh sorry that's MVC with 25 injuries, The troopers on the Turnpike refused to shut a lane down so the EMS and Fire department could work, Now I only had one patient so it was not going to be there very long what I almost got hit twice by trucks as I tried to get my patient to the ambulance or what some might call it The Bus. So I could feel for my brothers and sisters at Rockaway Twp, An if an EMT or what some say Emergency Workers got struck in my opinion the Troopers not only should be accountable but charged for creating an unsafe work condition when one could have been avoided in the first place, Let me say in closing if it was a road that I had for respond to everyday and Police wouldn't cooperate I would refuse to respond and then let the games begin with the fall out and I am sure there would be huge fall out.

By the way thanks for the feed back so far on this thread very interesting opinions thus far.

Tony Mondaro
Chief of EMS
Career EMT

 

[comsec1]

interoperability

everything seemed to work as it was designed to do so. interoperability is a buzz word used by agencys to to try to get more grant money and toys. when ever this subject is bought up at meetings one of the first things that comes up are these " feel good devices"
that are supposed to patch one users radio to someone elses, works in theory and when set up under testing conditions but tried to be used under situations when inter-agency communications in needed that second they never work, always audio delays, audio getting clipped off, feedback as you might have heard it yesterday when the FBI agent was talking on whatever radio was patched to B2-8 and many other parameters that need to be worked out before you can use them. also there are many operational issues that need to be understood by the end users as to how the various systems work. the one subject that is never heard or bought up and it is without a doubt the single most important part of a interoperable communications system is the use of a TRAINED RADIO OPERATOR who knows radios and radio system limitations. if a command post bus on scene was manned by a radio operator( not a police dispatcher) information would have been passed back and forth much quicker. a trained radio operator would have known how repeaters work and simplex work as well as trunked systems and currently available interop freqs such as SPEN and V-TAC and U-tac and so on. I have been at many such events and its always the same problems, not technical problems but operational problems.

 

[APX8000]

Tony...

I guess NJSP is the same as NYSP. Years ago my old department was dispatched to a working car fire. Chief arrives on scene and tells the first due Tanker to block the right lane (vehicle was parked on the right shoulder), which we did. As we start stretching a line, Trooper pulls up and tells us to move the truck because we are obstructing traffic. I tell the trooper to talk to the guy with the white helmet. He tells my Chief next. Chief replies that the vehicle is too close to the road even though its on the shoulder and it's a safety issue. Trooper responds, and I heard it with my own ears, "Move the f%$#in truck or you're going to be arrested for obstruction." With that, my Chief says. "Ok, we'll move the truck." And we did...right down the road with the car still burning away. Chief calls County Fire Control and explains we will be returning to quarters due to interference with fire operations by the state police and calls control on the phone to explain further. The car burned to the ground (it would have anyway). It was pure joy looking at the Troopers face as we were pulling away. After a meeting with the Troop commander, I was told the Trooper is now patrolling somewhere way upstate in NY. My old Chief had a set on him and I praise the Rockaway guy for doing the same. I'm a full-time LEO and volly FD/EMS and I would never put my fellow brothers or sisters, no matter if they are paid, volly, F/T, P/T, Fire, EMS, Police and even tow truck drivers in any danger where they were unable to do their job. It just goes to show that some get the badge and it goes straight to their head.

BTW...what ever happened to the Rockaway Fire Chief in court ?

 

[HM1529]

As I see it, the technological issues are much easier to overcome than the end user ignorance or inexperience....

You can have all the whizbang devices in the world plugged in together, but if the guys holding the radios in their hands don't know what those devices do or don't do or they don't understand what channels/frequencies are to be used for what, then you're screwed.

This is a generalized statement based on the things I've seen happen firsthand...not on this recent FBI incident (which I didn't monitor).

 

[902]

Hitting a nerve...

You can address every technical issue with two things: spectrum and money. It's really that simple.

Then we have the human element that we must consider. It's not as simple as the technical part because we have:
Politics, ego, turf, planning (or the lack thereof), training (or the lack thereof), and NIMS - specifically adopting it on paper in order to meet mandates, but never really using it every day or establishing joint operations under a unified command.

Mondaro's, Rockaway's and e911god's experiences all point back to the failure of the latter, because even if there was so-called interoperability, some of the people who were there had a silo mentality. Take an objective look at Rockaway. No bashing, no armchair quarterbacking, just a look from the outside looking in. The NJSP established a policy. Great. Rockaway established a policy. Great. Each developed their policies independently and, with a high probability, without awareness of (and possibly without regard for) the other's policies. This is one breakdown. Each agency apparently trains and operates independently. I believe that both the trooper and the fire company were both well trained and fully competent. Both were also concerned and were defending their policies. And the lack of offline human interaction caused it to go bad. Who won? It all looked bad to the public. Arrests were made or people were detained, positions were defended and in the end, the chief and engineer were more than inconvenienced and the trooper had to "take a ride" (in NJSP parlance, he was reassigned to the other side of the world). If a preexisting relationship of joint policy development, teamwork training and everyday operation in a unified command environment would have been the norm, none of this would have ever hapened.

My contention is that even if you have "interoperability" as a technical capability, the only way it would get used is for responders to embrace teamwork rather than act separately as individual components who just happen to be in the same place. If you have it and never use it, but expect everyone to be ready to go when it's "for real," the whole thing will become a galactic charlie foxtrot at best.

It's best to work out these issues before anyone ever has to respond. If there is an impasse on anything, those things have to be straighteded out or someone has to contract with someone who can work with whatever the inflexible situation is.

My hat's off to e's old chief.

 

[res5cue]

The Rockaway Chief and Driver of the apparatus appologized to the Trooper and all charges were dropped.

 

[mondaro]

I think it's a safety issue here, Where I was on the Turnpike there was no grassy area work to the right of the shoulder it was more like a 120 foot drop down into the drink.

The location on the turnpike where I working was the SNE roadway by the big rock between 15W and 15X.

Where I work I thank god that we all have a great relationship with the Police Department so if I want a road shut down to operate they do it in a heart beat.

I been on the job way to long to have an ego I just want to get the sick or injured person or people to the hospital and go back to my quarters and go home in one piece to my daughter and my dog and 3 cats and yes I almost forgot my wife.

I fully understand where the troopers are coming from but more times then I can count some cops treat EMS and Fire personnel like sh*t.

Especially in the town of Kearny where most of cops have no regard for there EMS system.

Have a good weekend everyone !!

 

[BJSCHIEF4900]

Interoperability Is A Big Question Mark. In My Firehouse I Have 3 Radios In Our Trucks. One Lowband ,vhf, And Uhf. The Only Radio I Don't Have Yet Is A 800 Mhrtz Radio. I Have A Crossband In The Vehicles To Cross Any Radio Over. We Could Tech Run A Full Operation Out Of Our Trucks. But That Still Does Not Relieve A Unified Command At The Post. Most Of The Problems You Run Into Is That The Police Depts Are In There Own Kingdom. They Don't Use The Nims At All. They Think There All (pro Military). But Yet Ask Them To Work With Another Agency And Forget About It.
I Did Not Get To Listen To The Incident But Did They Use The New V-tac Or U-call Channels?? Do Any Of These Depts Know Was Frequencies Are Out There That Are Specificly Out There For Interops??

 

[hulka]

Tony, remember the Forest Fire in 2003 that burned through the back of Beachwood and Berkley Twp? I was up on the parkway at about 2330 when a Captain pulled up and told us to watch out because they were opening the parkway up. Mind you there was still active fire burning along with control burning going on and the smoke was about and there is not any ambient light in that area to lighten things up some. It got into a little bit of a pissing match because "the state was loosing to much money because the road was shut down." They opened it back up and they were told that if someone gets killed because they are flying through the smoke and crashes into someone rot thing then it is your fault.

Been up there many times and and the Troopers would refuse to shut a lane down or the whole roadway. They make the conditions worse than they already are half of the time because they want you to work a scene while you still have vehicles passing you at 60+ MPH. If someone should hit one of their flares because they are rubber necking then watch out it is the end of the world.

Hate to say it but when and emergency worker(s) get killed then maybe they might close a lane down or two to make the scene safe.

Does anyone know where the liability be if you refused to help someone if you felt the scene was unsafe to you and your crew? Scene safety is taught in even basic first aid classes and if you have a "jersey" barrier to your left and a lane of traffic to your right with traffic passing you at speed, are you justified in not helping because of the unsafe scene conditions?????

Kevin

 

[scannersnstuff]

scene safety does not affect me,but these are my 2 cent's worth.if an emergency service's worker feel's that a trooper/trooper's feel that they did not do their job properly by not protecting them or the scene complain to their supervisor's.and if the trooper/officer or whatever started the pissing contest contact their internal affair's and lodge a demeanor complaint against them.i am pro law enforcement,but those type's of situation's should not be tolerated.if the complaint is not taken seriously go over the state police's head's and complain to the highway authority.they are the one's paying the njsp's saleries thru the contract.i'm sure the highway authority does not want the liability of having an injured or worse yet,killed emergency service's worker on their hand's.it's their highway and your there helping them out.not the other way around.my other point is,i'm not sure how it work's with the njsp but,in a local town the fire chief and not the pd is in charge of the fire scene.there's no reason to endanger someone's life or make an already bad situation worse just because someone has an ego problem.

 

[hulka]

You are right about a Fire scene. The stipulation with that is that there has to be ACTIVE fire. Once the fire is out then the Police is in charge of the scene. That is the way the law is written. I.e. So if the car is on fire then the Fire Commander is in charge, but once the fire is out the PD has say over the scene. So if they say we are opening the lanes then you have no say in the matter. I am not trying to be anti-PD but the state just has this huge ego problem like they are god.

Out where I am at not none of the locals get along to well with each other from what I have seen and been told. They are always trying to pawn the calls to the other agency if it is on a border line. If you are speeding and OTJ you just got a Ticket. There is no such thing as PBA cards and stuff out here. 20 MPH over and it is a jail-able offense no matter who you are.