Lancaster County - P25 System (Was OpenSky System Dumped)

[radioman2001]

I hope that grant comes with a use clause. That the equipment must be placed in service and used on a system within 1 year. Otherwise this whole grant thing is a big scam.
Any way, like I said earlier in this post all Penn has to do is have Harris reflash the radios and equipment to true P-25, no need to go out and buy new radios.

 

[vinzep491]

And warranty? There is no way a subscriber unit is in any way going to affect the warranty of the infrastructure. Even Motorola would not try to claim that.
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Motorola HAS tried to claim this in other systems, in order to trap the buyer into Moto exclusivly for the 3 years, or however long, they decide to wirte up the warrenty for. That way if someone needs to purchase more radios during that time frame they would already be in contract with Moto and would not have to re-bid for lower offers.

I know Dauphin County, Pa just put in their new p25 TRS, and one of the clauses of their contract is that ALL equipment on the system, even down to the speaker mics, MUST be Moto for the initial 3 year warrenty period. Then they can renogotiate that if they choose to extend their service agreement with Moto, or just go with someone else and do what they want.

Dauphin choose not to fight that battle, others have not. Take Philly for example. Moto tried to have this exclusive clause in their contract for their new 9600 system they are rolling out/updating, but the city's lawyers were smart enough to negotiate that so they were not tied down to one vendor. Motorola has since backed down on that issue and said that any radio may be on their infrastructure, given that it has to be compliant with the minimum system specs.

I hope that grant comes with a use clause. That the equipment must be placed in service and used on a system within 1 year. Otherwise this whole grant thing is a big scam.
Any way, like I said earlier in this post all Penn has to do is have Harris reflash the radios and equipment to true P-25, no need to go out and buy new radios.

As far as putting the radios IN TO SERVICE by the end of the year, and not just purchased, I do not think this will be an issue. I believe they will start installing what they have into the cars and on the personel and using them on the old conventional frequencies until the system is ready. This gives them a jump start on the install process and allows them to utilize the grant money without having the system 100% complete yet.

And for Harris simply reflashing the radios.. yes this is possible, but unlikely. Harris and the county ended on bad terms as we all know. Maybe they will do it, but will they try and charge an arm and a leg. What they SHOULD do is give the county a great deal on this method if they do go about trying to reflash the Harris Scam radios for all the drama and trouble they caused.. Time will only tell.

 

[iamhere300]

Motorola HAS tried to claim this in other systems, in order to trap the buyer into Moto exclusivly for the 3 years, or however long, they decide to wirte up the warrenty for. That way if someone needs to purchase more radios during that time frame they would already be in contract with Moto and would not have to re-bid for lower offers.

I know Dauphin County, Pa just put in their new p25 TRS, and one of the clauses of their contract is that ALL equipment on the system, even down to the speaker mics, MUST be Moto for the initial 3 year warrenty period. Then they can renogotiate that if they choose to extend their service agreement with Moto, or just go with someone else and do what they want.
.

From the Dauphin County PA website,

" Q: Will end user departments be able to purchase additional radios beyond what the County is providing to use on the new system?

A: Yes, any department or municipality can at anytime (at their expense) purchase radios for use on the new system. Such equipment must meet the County minimum radio specifications or the County will not guarantee that it would work or work properly on the system."

www.DauphinCounty.org | Communication System

And although the contract may or may not state that only Motorola equipment is allowed or it will void the warranty of the entire system, a contract cannot go against the law - and the law is very clear on warranty issues. Unless the manufacturer can PROVE that the other equipment is causing an issue, than the warranty is valid.

I thought the point on the Dauphin county page about house sirens to be very laughable. They are saying I can't take a paging controller, tack in a PN2222 for a relay, tied to a larger contactor, and control a house siren, or it MAY void the warranty. While it may void a warranty covering the accessory connector, there is no way in the world it could void a warranty for basic operation of the radio.

"Q: Can I use my existing siren and tie it into the new radio?

A: No. Motorola does not support and will not certify any radio install that is coupled with any legacy equipment and may void any warranties."

Personally, if I lived in Dauphin County, I would be voting for new commissioners. The entire deal sucks IMHO.

 

[RFEngineering101]

I hope that grant comes with a use clause. That the equipment must be placed in service and used on a system within 1 year. Otherwise this whole grant thing is a big scam.
Any way, like I said earlier in this post all Penn has to do is have Harris reflash the radios and equipment to true P-25, no need to go out and buy new radios.

That may be an option over here in Chester County where some of the EFJ stuff that "may" be flashed and reused on the new system, but that is NOT an option in Lancaster. Lanc is putting in UHF T-Band system which requires all new radios. The old OpenSky radios that are still in Lanc's possession are nothign but glorified paperweights at this point, although I guess they could use them for conventional TAC channels in a pinch.

 

[RFEngineering101]

And for Harris simply reflashing the radios.. yes this is possible, but unlikely. Harris and the county ended on bad terms as we all know. Maybe they will do it, but will they try and charge an arm and a leg. What they SHOULD do is give the county a great deal on this method if they do go about trying to reflash the Harris Scam radios for all the drama and trouble they caused.. Time will only tell.

See my last post..There is no flash for an 800 MHz OpenSky radio to make it do 450-512 MHz P25 digital. Harris is now making a multi-band digital radio called Unity but I doubt you'll see Harris radios on this new system.

 

[vinzep491]

AGAIN. Only moto radios will be on the system for three years. This is not illegal because the original bid the county put of was for a system and the three year maitnence and warrenty. I am aware that the ema site says as long as it meets minimum specs you are good to go but this is not the case. If you go back and read the county commisioners meeting minutes between 05 and 09 concerning the system this is all spelt out. If the county only solicited for a system and radios then it could be illegal to be tied dwn to moto with out rebidding.since the warrenty and maitnence is inclded on the original bid they are allowed to say this.

All of the conversations are available, word for word and in detail inthe meeting minutes. Google dauphin county meeting motorola and they will start to come up.

I have read every conversation between thecounty, moto, andeveryone involved, and have also discussed this moto exclucivity with the county solicitor, who is a good friend, and this is legal and it is how it is.

Either way none of that has anything to do withthe original discussion about lancaster. Sorry for thesloppy reply, im on a smart tablet im not used to.

 

[iamhere300]

AGAIN, whether or not Dauphin allows any other radios on the system is moot. The issue was a non Motorola radio, or other manufacturer if it was another manufacturers system, CAN NOT void the warranty of the system. It simply CAN NOT DO IT.

If the folks at Dauphin, from the solicitor to the commissioners to the 911 director were STUPID enough, or fraudulent enough (and I am making no accusation, just observation) to allow this to happen there, as you say, it has nothing to do with the Lancaster county system.

AGAIN, use of a brand X radio on a brand Y system, can in no way void the warranty of the system sold by brand Y. It may not be allowed, Motorola may scream, and they can even stop their service contract - but not their warranty. This is simple consumer law. The only way they could legally claim any kind of issue, is if they can PROVE that the warranty issue was caused by the brand X radio.

Knowing some of the people involved at Lancaster County, they are much smarter than to allow the issue to come up.

 

[iamhere300]

Interestingly enough - why this even was thrown out there in the first place escapes me, the Dauphin county system has been out of warranty for some time now.

 

[RFEngineering101]

Knowing some of the people involved at Lancaster County, they are much smarter than to allow the issue to come up.

I just sent you a private message about this ^^^

 

[ocguard]

I know Dauphin County, Pa just put in their new p25 TRS, and one of the clauses of their contract is that ALL equipment on the system, even down to the speaker mics, MUST be Moto for the initial 3 year warrenty period. Then they can renogotiate that if they choose to extend their service agreement with Moto, or just go with someone else and do what they want.

You misunderstand this concept. The actual clause requires that those users who use Motorola terminal units (portables, mobiles, base stations, etc) must only use Motorola OEM accessories and parts. For example, no Multiplier batteries or Otto speaker/microphones.

No system manufacturer would say that using a fully compatible terminal unit on their system will void the system's warranty.

However, in York County, departments are being prevented from loading Motorola radios onto the Harris system because the Motorola radio will not allow the system to reset it's emergency status, which is how the Harris radios operate. And since it's a sketchy area in the P25 standard (sketchy as in NOT ADDRESSED), it's a hard up-hill battle.

 

[vinzep491]

Interestingly enough - why this even was thrown out there in the first place escapes me, the Dauphin county system has been out of warranty for some time now.

Not true. The warrenty did not actually begin until 1/1/10 when the sysytem went thru acceptance testing. It is on it's original warrenty until 1/1/13. Three year warrenty, One more year.

You misunderstand this concept. The actual clause requires that those users who use Motorola terminal units (portables, mobiles, base stations, etc) must only use Motorola OEM accessories and parts. For example, no Multiplier batteries or Otto speaker/microphones.

No system manufacturer would say that using a fully compatible terminal unit on their system will void the system's warranty..

Again. And again. Not true. The EMA's website does point out that only Moto accesories may be used, but if you read deeper into the Meeting Minutes and talk to people involved in the project, you WILL find out that any other radios, other than Moto, ARE NOT allowed on the system AT ALL until 1/1/13. Period. Set in stone. Confimed with the lawyer that signed off on the project.

This was the case with Philly's original 800mhz TRS as well, and it is well documented now that they are upgrading and rebuilding because the city would not let this clause be put in the contract again. The city even threatened to not go with Moto until they changed this part of the contract/warrenty. This too is well documented on these forums and in state documents.


In other news , any updated on the LanCo system? What's the word from people who know insiders on the project?

 

[Ravenboy2003]

See my last post..There is no flash for an 800 MHz OpenSky radio to make it do 450-512 MHz P25 digital. Harris is now making a multi-band digital radio called Unity but I doubt you'll see Harris radios on this new system.

I think Harris has ran far far away from Lancaster County....

 

[Ravenboy2003]

LOL.. Tait is far from the cheapest. Quality wise it is on par with Motorola. Those that are not aware of that are not informed. Ask just about any Tait user. Have you seen one yet? Held a portable in your hand? Used it? Looked at the speaker microphone connection?

You want cheaper than look at Vertex, Relm, Icom, Kenwood, and others.

Dealer cost on a highband trunked portable from Icom is 1k. THAT is inexpensive. Tait is nowhere near that cheap.

And warranty? There is no way a subscriber unit is in any way going to affect the warranty of the infrastructure. Even Motorola would not try to claim that.

If it affects the operation of the system, then the system would not be a fully complaint P25 system.

Do you really want any system that will only allow one manufacturers radios to be used on it? That leaves no room for true interoperability, as well as competitive bids. The cost would be outrageous.

It is amazing how much P25 radios have gone down in cost here in MO where the new statewide system is open to any P25 CAP compliant radio. Radios are available from 1250 up - again full blown P25 trunking radios!

Notice very clearly - I am not claiming Tait is better than, worse than, etc Motorola. Lets not get that battle started. I am just stating that by no means it is the cheapest by any stretch.

The days of Public Safety agencies paying $4000-$5000 per portable and mobile is going to come to an abrupt halt soon. The competitive pricing from the vendors you mentioned plus a couple others that are sneaking up on the industry are going to make things VERY interesting.

And its just not competition for the subscriber market. More and more integrators are now placing competitive bids for Public Safety systems. It's not just big named manufacturers that will have a corner on the market anymore.

 

[portroyalbirdy]

Don't mean to stir the pot...but is there any update if Lanco is making ANY progress?? I was just down for a bit yesterday and I've never had so much trouble with Low-Band Frequencies! I had to wave my scanner around just to get signal and the UHF Crossband Repeater is useless as well!!! I know, its Low-Band and you won't hear everything...but still! Thats pretty bad when I can get Chester Co.'s VHF Patches, in Lanco may I add... better then the County I'm actually in!

 

[NodrogCop]

I heard from a source this weekend that the county wants the bid to be awarded by the end of the month...source has been pretty reliable in the past.

 

[iamhere300]

I heard from a source this weekend that the county wants the bid to be awarded by the end of the month...source has been pretty reliable in the past.

Thats what I had posted on the 2nd. Seems to be the big drop date for an announcement!

 

[vinzep491]

So guys..

we're getting close to that end of the month deadline.. Any info leaking thru the grapevine, or do you think we will have to wait until the official winning bidder to be disclosed?

Also, does anyone one have the updated timeline of events after the bid is given? when are we suppost to be transitioned?

 

[RFEngineering101]

So guys..

we're getting close to that end of the month deadline.. Any info leaking thru the grapevine, or do you think we will have to wait until the official winning bidder to be disclosed?

Also, does anyone one have the updated timeline of events after the bid is given? when are we suppost to be transitioned?

Whose "deadline" is the end of the month? A couple people here who claim to have inside information?

I think a couple people here seem to think that's some magic award date, but LanCo has not announced anything and has not set some magic award date. With their Narrowbanding waiver submitted last month, they could stretch this thing out a few more months if they wanted to. Knowing how tight finances are for most muni governments, they may still be digging their feet in and trying to squeeze what they can out of the bidders before they pull one off the vine.

 

[iamhere300]

Whose "deadline" is the end of the month? A couple people here who claim to have inside information?

I think a couple people here seem to think that's some magic award date, but LanCo has not announced anything and has not set some magic award date. With their Narrowbanding waiver submitted last month, they could stretch this thing out a few more months if they wanted to. Knowing how tight finances are for most muni governments, they may still be digging their feet in and trying to squeeze what they can out of the bidders before they pull one off the vine.

No "deadlines". Just the word to vendors.

And the narrowbanding waiver is just a request, no idea if they are going to be granted yet.

 

[RFEngineering101]

No "deadlines". Just the word to vendors.

And the narrowbanding waiver is just a request, no idea if they are going to be granted yet.

Yet another thing that Lanco may be taking into cosideration.

Buried in the recent Payroll Tax Cut Vote is a plan that will require T-Band Public Safety licenses to give back their channels within 9-10 years in exchage for D-Block 700 MHz channels.

Smartcomm Examines Payroll Tax Cut Vote

Lancaster fought hard to get WGAL's T-Band channels. Looks like in just a few short years they'll have to turn them right back over to Uncle Sam.