BCD436HP/BCD536HP: LCN order on a Cap+ system

[Freqed]

I did a LCN search on this system tonight with a BCD536HP: River Spirit Casino Trunking System, Tulsa, Oklahoma
When I got home and dowloaded the results the order was 1,2,0,4 for the listed Freqs of that system. Is 0 a good LCN number or is it saying that freq doesn't belong to that system. The freq is in the FCC liscense for WQCC538 as are quite a few others.

 

[dave3825]

Pretty sure lcn's start at 1.

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

LCN = even number of LSN (or Ch ID) pair divided by 2. So: LSNs 1 & 2 would be LCN 1. LSN 3 & 4 would be LCN 2 and so on and so on. The LCNs for the casino system you mentioned are in the RRDB here

 

[Freqed]

I know they are in the DB. Last updated in 2018, don't know why the LCN came back 0 on the one freq. I'm trying to figure out why a TRX-2 won't touch this system but Unidens have no trouble with it.

 

[buddrousa]

Whistlers do not trunktrack they scan voice channels.
Unidens setup correctly will trunktrack DMR Trunking.

 

[hiegtx]

I know they are in the DB. Last updated in 2018, don't know why the LCN came back 0 on the one freq. I'm trying to figure out why a TRX-2 won't touch this system but Unidens have no trouble with it.

The "zero" result on the LCN finder simply indicates that probably no radio traffic was associated with that frequency. Since it was never used, the LCN Finder leaves it as a zero. For all practical purposes, it is essentially "blank" (unknown). When you run the LCN Finder on the x36HP or SDS series scanners, it resets all frequencies to an LCN of 0 (zero) when you start the find process If, during the time the finder is running, it does find usage, with a specific LCN referenced, then it fills that frequency's LCN setting with whatever was found.

 

[Freqed]

Whistlers do not trunktrack they scan voice channels.
Unidens setup correctly will trunktrack DMR Trunking.

I have no trouble with this system on my TRX-2: Hard Rock Hotel and Casino Trunking System, Catoosa, Oklahoma But I can't get a peep out of this one, even as close as the front door: River Spirit Casino Trunking System, Tulsa, Oklahoma They look to be the same type of systems.

 

[buddrousa]

As stated the TRX scanners do not trunk track the scan the voice channels so they just scan all the channels looking for traffic if the system changes channels it scans the channels looking for traffic. The Uniden scanners decode the trunking data stream and follow the TG from channel to channel. Now if I were betting your 0 would be a 3. This comes from your scanner finding a 1 2 and 4.

 

[Whiskey3JMC]

don't know why the LCN came back 0 on the one freq.

You had to have stopped the LCN finder early (3/4 found) rather than continue to let it run and find all LCNs (display will tell you when all LCNs were found). As hiegtx mentioned there needs to be traffic for a period of time on the "zeroed" frequency for the scanner to detect LCN. Nonetheless, plug in a "3" for that one frequency's zero and you'll be good to go

 

[Freqed]

I will try the LCN finder again, but the issue isn't trunking it's just hearing ANY audio on the RS system. I hear audio on the HR system all day long but just not on RS. LCN doesn't even matter to the TRX as ez-scan doesn't have a place for it.

 

[garys]

The TRX doesn't follow the data channel, so it doesn't need the LCN. As I understand it, it scans the frequencies conventionally looking for TG IDs. If it finds one that matches the programming it stops on the frequency.

I will try the LCN finder again, but the issue isn't trunking it's just hearing ANY audio on the RS system. I hear audio on the HR system all day long but just not on RS. LCN doesn't even matter to the TRX as ez-scan doesn't have a place for it.

 

[wmccr]

Freqed,
Are you still monitoring the RS system? I've tried LCN finder but cant get past 4 LCNs, however, there are a total of 12 frequencies that they use at the facility. RR's database is FAR from complete on this system. For instance, RR shows 6 identified TGs (shuttle 103 is incorrect however) but I have discovered an additional 31 separate TGs and have identified 20+ of those 31 so far (for some of them, I cant make out what they're saying to build enough context to identify the TG). Plug in freqs 456.300, 457.000, 457.850, 457.975, 461.750, 463.350, 466.750, 468.350 for RS. I've seen nearly all (if not all) these additional freqs used on a busy night with a concert but given the choice of monitoring TGs vs run an LCN scan, I've been monitoring TGs. I hear steady voice traffic from them all day, but there doesn't appear to be too much voice traffic overlap to aid finding LCNs on the average day. Seems like a 'big name' headliner performance night would be the best time to run the LCN scan there since it results in way more radio activity.

 

[dave3825]

Plug in freqs 456.300, 457.000, 457.850, 457.975, 461.750, 463.350, 466.750, 468.350 for RS

Pretty sure most of those are input freqs. There is a freq of 464.125 listed that I would monitor. Would not be surprised if that turned out to be LSN/Ch 5 & 6

 

[wmccr]

Could be. I just know that during the usual day-to-day operations, I see the 4 listed freqs used most often with a fairly steady amount of voice coming across them. After plugging in the other 8 freqs, I started seeing them populating my sds100's screen as well and was better able to follow conversations and pick up all sorts of new TGs as they floated around the freqs. Those really opened up what I was able to hear from RS. Evening and night time seems busier (makes sense) and of course big events is when I've seen the other freqs populate.

 

[dave3825]

How close are you to RS? If your missing repeater output freqs, but have the inputs within range of the 2 watt MO freqs, then that could explain that. I would try monitoring all the FB freqs listed on the license and see if there is any difference.

Do you get anything on 464.125? If you have DSDPlus it makes the whole process simpler.

 

[wmccr]

I looked at the SCADACore site and it says I am just under 8.5 miles and likely have terrain-based line of sight with RS.
I have an RTL-SDR with Airspy but got frustrated with DSD+ and never got it to work. I figured I'd have to buy more RTLs and antennas to get it to work so I stuck with the SDS100 that I've had for about 2 years now. I'm interested in getting DSD+ to work, but its on the backburner. I'm having too much fun with what this SDS can do. I've been passively scanning with that thing until the last few months when I dove into the different analyzers, discovery modes, close call settings, etc. and realized this thing Is a pretty decent tool for finding all sorts of new things to listen to; but I'm definitely still in the learning phase when it comes to how all these different types of trunked systems work.

As far as RS goes, I started scanning them tonight at 10:15 and stopped at 10:55.
These were the results (format is: freq/LCN/TGs observed on the freq - within that short 40 minutes I listened in)
451.300 /1/ 137 100 101 163 135
452.000 /2/ 100 163 143 161 200 126 135 101 113
452.850 /3/
452.975 /4/ 113 100 137 135 163 143 164 101 117 49 122

Now, it sounds like they're having a pretty slow night. Friday and Saturdays are MUCH busier than tonight was.
What is interesting is the lack of any traffic on LCN 3 within that 40 minutes of monitoring, which may be why he had trouble finding the LCN for it; there was just zero voice traffic on it.

I don't specifically recall 464.125 popping up on one of RS's busier nights. Not to say it didn't, but I was more focused on identifying the TGs by noting all of those TG numbers down and what was said, and only passively watching the freqs populate to see if I saw any of the new ones that I programmed in appear, which I did see, including some in the 46x.xxx range, but I don't specifically remember which. I just heard loads more voice traffic with those additional freqs programmed in and it appeared that -as long as there wasn't a prolonged lull in the conversation- the TG would remain on that freq until the convo ended or there was an extended lull in them talking.
I'll actively track the frequencies that are used this weekend (sort of like I did above unless anybody has a better way of organizing the info) and post it back here.

 

[Drkatzjr45]

I have found that that the frequency 452.850 no longer has discernible traffic, or they have encrypted it.

When completing a “Search” with my SDS,
I can hear viable communication on all frequencies you stated except for the above-mentioned.

Also I have found that the LCN’s for each respective frequency rotates at specific intervals.

For example, 452.000 may be at the LCN of 1, but will change, for example, to LCN 2.

While I was writing this, I just noticed that 452.000 (for three minutes) stated LCN 2.

A few minutes later it stated it was LCN 1

I program my SDS myself (I do not use any software) and have found the greatest success at monitoring this is to create a favorite list with a system with several sites such as is stated below:

System 1

Site 1
Frequency: 452.000
LCN 1 Color Code 2

Frequency 452.3500
LCN 2 CC 2

I never enter a third because I have had no luck programming it…

Modulation: Auto
Filter: Global or Auto works best for me

Site 2
451.300
LCN 1
CC: 2
Mod: Auto
F: Auto

452.000
LCN 2
MOD: Auto
F: Auto

Site 3

452.975
LCN 1
CC: 2 MO

And so on….


I have simply found that programming them using RR’s database, in only one system, on my SDS results in discontinuity of traffic.

Regardless of what anyone states this system is tricky to monitor.

For those that have a SDS, are you stating that if I enter both the TG and the user ID and turn off “ID Search” that I can enter the frequencies in the order that you have stated and will have no problem with discontinuity of communications?

Thank you for your help and I would like to apologize, in advance, if I appear ignorant because…

I am… Lol.

 

[wmccr]

Interesting. I've ran the LCN analyze several times this past week and I have consistently received 451.3 as LCN 1, 452.0 as LCN 2, 452.85 doesn't show anything, and then it jumps to 463.35 as LCN 5. Ran it last night while they were hosting MMA fights and got the same thing again. LCNs 1,2 and 5 and they were paired with the same frequencies. But who really knows though.
They have a concert there tonight (going by their website) and I'll try one last time for these LCNs then probably give up on it for a while to go back to discerning TGs and confirming frequencies that are used like I did above. Regardless, RR's database is not complete for them.

On my SDS, I set up MOTOTRBO trunking discovery, selected RS casino from my favorites list (made sure their service type is set to 'on'), entered the remaining 8 (of 12) frequencies I had for the casino, set ID search on and use wide invert. I think that's it.
I have been following complete conversations all over the frequency set. RR's database shows 6 TGs but there are TONS of them for RS. Their TGs are very compartmentalized to specific areas and job tasks. There is definitely a lot to listen to over there.

 

[buddrousa]

It works better on a busy system as it has to see traffic on each frequency to find the LNC so on a less used system you may have to run it for extended time during the busy part of the day.

 

[dave3825]

Also I have found that the LCN’s for each respective frequency rotates at specific intervals.

For example, 452.000 may be at the LCN of 1, but will change, for example, to LCN 2.

While I was writing this, I just noticed that 452.000 (for three minutes) stated LCN 2.

A few minutes later it stated it was LCN 1

I have consistently received 451.3 as LCN 1, 452.0 as LCN 2, 452.85 doesn't show anything, and then it jumps to 463.35 as LCN 5. Ran it last night while they were hosting MMA fights and got the same thing again. LCNs 1,2 and 5 and they were paired with the same frequencies.

I believe the OP is meaning LSN (Logical Slot Number) as there are 2 time slots and they will bounce between slot 1 and slot 2. I do not believe LCN (Logical Channel Numbers) change on their own.