Legality of Scanners

[Bayonne-Bob]

one is allowed to carry a scanner by hand anywhere in ny state
regardless of what agency they do or do not work for
regardless of any license one does or does not have

is completely different when having a scanner in a car
in order to have a scanner inside the car
one must be
Policeman,Fireman,Ambulance and or Emergency worker
Or
Have a valid Amateur radio license (issued by F.C.C. ofcourse)

NYC and or NY state may try to say a ham radio operator is not allowed to have a scanner in their car..
But it would hold no water (even in court) if ny or nyc tried to ticket or arrest a ham radio operator....
Why....simply because no law written by a state,city,county,village or town can over ride a federal law..

federal law always over rides any other law
a lesser jurisdiction law can not over ride the larger jurisdiction law

here is a different example
any federal beach...one can be fully nude
even if right next to federal beach is a non federal beach that does not allow nude beachers

 

[GTR8000]

in order to have a scanner inside the car
one must be
Policeman,Fireman,Ambulance and or Emergency worker

Incorrect. Nowhere in the NYS law does it provide any exemption for emergency services workers (except for police/peace officers "acting pursuant to his special duties", whatever the hell that means). As a matter of fact, it is technically illegal to operate a portable or mobile radio in a private vehicle if that radio is capable of receiving "police frequencies". Per the law, you need express written permission from the AOJ to "equip" your vehicle with such a receiver. Since a portable/mobile is a transceiver, it is by its very nature a receiver, so it falls under this law. Also, since you can find "police frequencies" in every bandsplit of VHF Low, VHF High, UHF, etc., any public safety radio would fall under that law. Since the law doesn't specify whether or not those frequencies have to be actively in use, or local relative to the jurisdiction charging you with violating this law, this law is more or less a catchall "gotcha".

So, in summary: The local volunteer EMT who carries his portable radio with him at all times (even while "off-duty") could, in fact, be charged with a misdemeanor under this law if he has that portable in his vehicle while driving around.

 

[gralston73]

So, in summary: The local volunteer EMT who carries his portable radio with him at all times (even while "off-duty") could, in fact, be charged with a misdemeanor under this law if he has that portable in his vehicle while driving around.

This is where NYS really shows how messed up it really is...being a squad officer that is equipped with red lights and siren (making my POV an emergency vehicle), I am required (by NYS DOH) to have radio communications with my dispatch center. Legally, it's a Catch-22 because there is no exception for emergency vehicles under VTL397

 

[Spec]

So what seems to be the problem ? You are required to have communications with your dispatch so the logical thing is to get the written authorization and put the two way radio in. If you can't justify your needs to obtain the authorization then I guess you don't meet the requirements . These authorizations are usually given out with little or no problem. I have yet to see why it is necessary for anyone to be on a "main" police frequency that is not a police officer other than a Chief Officer. There are usually secondary frequencies for that OR the EMS channels. No need for the police frequencies other than self created ones.

 

[DaveNF2G]

one is allowed to carry a scanner by hand anywhere in ny state
regardless of what agency they do or do not work for
regardless of any license one does or does not have

FALSE

is completely different when having a scanner in a car
in order to have a scanner inside the car one must be
Policeman,Fireman,Ambulance and or Emergency worker

FALSE

Or
Have a valid Amateur radio license (issued by F.C.C. ofcourse)

TRUE on paper. See below.

NYC and or NY state may try to say a ham radio operator is not allowed to have a scanner in their car..
But it would hold no water (even in court) if ny or nyc tried to ticket or arrest a ham radio operator....
Why....simply because no law written by a state,city,county,village or town can over ride a federal law..

FALSE

Read my article for an explanation.

http://nf2g.com/scannist/VTL397.html

federal law always over rides any other law
a lesser jurisdiction law can not over ride the larger jurisdiction law

FALSE

People should restrain themselves from commenting on legal issues unless they really understand how the law works and how to interpret what it says. All it does is create confusion.

 

[gralston73]

So what seems to be the problem ? You are required to have communications with your dispatch so the logical thing is to get the written authorization and put the two way radio in.

My "authorization" is my little NYS DOH Certificate of Inspection in my window which makes my POV an emergency vehicle. The "problem" as I see it is that the NYS requirement that I have a mobile radio (which can receive police frequencies) violates one of its own laws as it is currently written, because there is no public safety exemption. (Dave please correct me if my interpretation of the current law is incorrect)

 

[Spec]

The following is what the state says about Authorized Emergency vehicles.:

§ 101. Authorized emergency vehicle. Every ambulance, police vehicle
or bicycle, correction vehicle, fire vehicle, civil defense emergency
vehicle, emergency ambulance service vehicle, blood delivery vehicle,
county emergency medical services vehicle, environmental emergency
response vehicle, sanitation patrol vehicle, hazardous materials
emergency vehicle and ordnance disposal vehicle of the armed forces of
the United States.

Now each one of these vehicles described also has definition as to what makes them a certain vehicle. Yet another criteria.
Punctuation makes a difference too.

So the question is which are you ? If you are one of the ones defined in the above law then apply for the radio authorization. Very simple. Either you are or you are not authorized. Law is complex and not as simple as many would believe.

 

[N4DES]

Same situation came up in Florida when they re-wrote ours 3 years ago. It is being changed this year to fix the oversite.

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Secti...ocumentType=Bill&BillNumber=0151&Session=2008

 

[gralston73]

I meet the definition of an emergency vehicle under "emergency ambulance service vehicle". There is no authorization for a radio to apply for. On the NYS DOH Bureau of EMS Inspection Report for Emergency Ambulance Service Vehicles that we must submit to the DOH for each of our line officers is Section 800, General and Vehicle Requirements .26(c) which states "Direct communication w/ dispatcher & ambulance". I suppose this would serve as our "authorization" , however, it still violates VTL397 as it is currently written, as there is no exemption for public safety. Nor is there an exemption for taxis, towtrucks, busses, delivery vehicles, or anything else that could possibly have a radio in it. It is a poorly written law...plain and simple.

 

[Spec]

gralston,
You are reading into something that is not there. From what you are say and are quoting the direct communications is with your dispatcher and ambulance. It does not say police. It says dispatcher and that can be on your own frequency such as an EMS frequency. If you are dispatched by the police you will need their authorization to operate on their frequency. In many police departments there exists "memos of understanding" to operate on an infrequent basis on each others frequencies. Again this refers back to "authorization" in a written format. Radios that are programmable on the bench and not in the field by the user are not readily capable of receiving police frequencies if no police frequencies are entered. It is considered to be an affirmative defense. In much of this thread folks have read the basic law as written. 99 percent have not read the case law. I will restate my original response, take the time and read nf2g's (Dave) copy of the law as I believe you will find it most informative.

 

[ernie2249]

Just to keep this more complicated, the city I live in has NYCOMCO EDACS system. Police, fire, city bus, board of public works, etc., all have the same radio system. All radios are "capable" of receiving the police channels. They may not be currently programmed to do such, but the fact remains that they are "capable". So, as I am trying to understand this thread, anyone but the Police and Fire are in violation of the current law???? (What if, say the city buses and others have channels programmed so they can call Police or Fire in an emergency?) I guess they would still be in violation?

 

[Spec]

Radios that are programmable on the bench and not in the field by the user are not readily capable of receiving police frequencies if no police frequencies are entered. Therefore they are not in violation.

 

[GTR8000]

Spec, you keep trying to interpret the law as you think it reads, not as it actually does. Nowhere in the law do the words "readily", "programmable" or "programmed" appear. It states clearly "a radio receiving set capable of receiving signals on the frequencies allocated for police use" and nothing different. As the letter of the law reads, ANY receiver that operates in the same bands as police frequencies is in violation. The law doesn't even specify that the receiver has to have police frequencies currently programmed in it, just that it must be CAPABLE. Until you can show us where the words "readily" or "field programmable" are in that law, you're just reading it the way you want to read it. So instead of telling gralston that he's the one reading into something that's not there, take your own advice.

 

[Spec]

Thus the reason for post # 30. You must read CASE law.

 

[DaveNF2G]

There is no case law on it yet, but trunked systems with police talkgroups would appear to be outside the scope of the law. The system itself operates on frequencies allocated for Public Safety or business trunking or whatever. The fact that the police happen to use a particular frequency in a given geographical area does not transform it into a "frequenc[y] allocated by the Federal Communications Commission for police use."

 

[c0untyb0y]

Calling all FASNY delegates

Hey there fellow volunteer firefighters... you say you don't like this V&T397 law? Well neither do I! So you know what we ought to do? Contact our local FASNY representative! FASNY may take this to the state legislature if they feel there is merit enough to change V&T397. I can't see why not, with SWN looming off in the somewhere distant future. What need will there be for a "radio receiver capable set", or whatever the wording of V&T397 that stumbles over itself, if state law enforcement migrates to a system that has no plausible way of being monitored outside of buying a $5000 portable plus programming?! Yes, local law will use VHF/UHF channels still, but wouldn't one logically deduce that V&T397 was put on the books to cover the state law enforcement community's request for such a restriction on mobile scanner operators?

Instead of trying to manipulate V&T397 to your liking, just get rid of the damned thing. Call FASNY today. Don't delay!

 

[newsnick175]

I can't believe that this V&T section has been used by itself very many times. As was stated before, if your caught doing somthing ilegal, having a scanner is the least of your problems! If your a vollie or an EMT, no cop is going to bust you just for a scanner in your car. Because the cops selectively enforce the law and this one is so off the radar, the state legislature isn't going to trouble its self to kill it. How about this: your breaking in to houses and you have a buddy sitting at home listening to the cops on his scanner and calls you on your Nextel to warn you when the cops are dispatched cause you triped the alarm! Should Nextels be illegal in your car cause you could be up to no good?

 

[DaveNF2G]

As mentioned in my article [plug], bills to amend Section 397 and provide some on-paper relief for firefighters and other volunteers are submitted every couple of years. They always die in committee.

You need to get Joe Bruno and Shelly Silver interested in this issue somehow if you want anything to happen.

 

[scosgt]

I have only seen this to be a real problem in two circumstances:

1. Over zealous civilians, be they Aux cops (not on duty) or whatever, jump Police calls. Usually this does not result in an arrest, just some corrective action.

2. Burglary rings using mobile scanners to avoid arrest. Burglary calls are generally broadcast in the clear around here, so it can be effective (we had one crew that had been ratted out, and their car had a GPS locator installed under Court Order and the cops were NOT using dispatch freqs to track them).

Drug dealers generally know that the undercover cops don't broadcast the locations of their buy and bust operations on the radio.

 

[Thunderknight]

Radios that are programmable on the bench and not in the field by the user are not readily capable of receiving police frequencies if no police frequencies are entered. Therefore they are not in violation.

How about some (small) communities where the EMS and Police dispatching occur on the same frequency?