Lithium ion batteries start fire on ship

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I babysit chargers, but this makes me paranoid... I have a house full of batteries, between radios, phones, tablets, high power flashlights and tools. I've heard talk of storing them in ammo boxes for safety but perhaps someone could elaborate on this.
The dogs are crated when we're not home and God forbid if we ever had a fire. There's zero chance I'd forgive myself. I unplug everything except the obvious (fridge etc.) when we're out.

It is a challenge. Do you set up a safe area to charge stuff where you can be sure all is turned off? What is a safe area? Then do you want all those batteries together? If you spread them out around the place, how do you manage them? If you put them in an ammo box as some suggest, you have created a bomb. I am going to look into those bags. Not certain what the magic is with the bags.

 

[JvdK]

In the Netherlands we recently had several electric vehicle’s (EV) which suddenly got on fire. What makes the situation of an EV on fire dangerous is that these battery packs are verry difficult to extinguis. If you think you extinguished the fire in an EV’s battery pack, it suddenly can re-ignite. Best practise is to submerge these EV‘s in a container filled with water for at least 24hrs. In a growing number of Dutch cities it’s prohibited to charge EV’s in a parking garage.

Last summer we had a Ro-Ro ship filled with over 900 cars (EV’s and normal cars) suddenly on fire in a busy shipping lane in the North Sea. Beside the deckhouse and the upperside of the ship’s structure, several decks with luxury cars burned out. The fire suddenly started in an EV. Only thing they could do was cooling the remaining structure of this ship and wait untill the fire extinguished itself, hoping this ship would not capsize and/or sink.

https://kustwacht.nl/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Nachtbeeld-brandende-Fremantle-Highway.jpg

Fremantle Highway - Kustwacht Nederland

Aan boord van de Fremantle Highway ontstond op dinsdag 25 juli 2023 brand. Het schip voer toen 27 kilometer noord van Ameland. Nadat de brand zich uitbreidde over het schip werden de 23 bemanningsleden geëvacueerd. Eén persoon is helaas overleden. Het was een ingewikkelde reddingsoperatie door...

kustwacht.nl

 

[alcahuete]

Not certain what the magic is with the bags.

The ones used on commercial aircraft come in two varities, one can simply withstand the heat, and the other can withstand the heat and uses polymer gel (after you add water) to knock down the thermal runaway.

 

[Falcon9h]

It is a challenge. Do you set up a safe area to charge stuff where you can be sure all is turned off? What is a safe area? Then do you want all those batteries together? If you spread them out around the place, how do you manage them? If you put them in an ammo box as some suggest, you have created a bomb. I am going to look into those bags. Not certain what the magic is with the bags.

First one that posts a link to the bags is the hero of the day! Sounds like the route to take.
Somehow I thought the ammo box deal might not be good. Glad I only spent 10 bucks at a local thrift.

I have one charging area, don't charge anything while I'm asleep and unplug everything if I go out.

Edit: Checked Amazon and the only storage bags they have mention lipo and li-ion. Same thing?
Finally taking this seriously!

 

[Falcon9h]

First one that posts a link to the bags is the hero of the day! Sounds like the route to take.
Somehow I thought the ammo box deal might not be good. Glad I only spent 10 bucks at a local thrift.

I have one charging area, don't charge anything while I'm asleep and unplug everything if I go out.

Edit: Checked Amazon and the only storage bags they have mention lipo and li-ion. Same thing?
Finally taking this seriously!

I meant lipo and not li_ion.

 

[HM1529]

In the Netherlands we recently had several electric vehicle’s (EV) which suddenly got on fire. What makes the situation of an EV on fire dangerous is that these battery packs are verry difficult to extinguis. If you think you extinguished the fire in an EV’s battery pack, it suddenly can re-ignite. Best practise is to submerge these EV‘s in a container filled with water for at least 24hrs. In a growing number of Dutch cities it’s prohibited to charge EV’s in a parking garage.

Last summer we had a Ro-Ro ship filled with over 900 cars (EV’s and normal cars) suddenly on fire in a busy shipping lane in the North Sea. Beside the deckhouse and the upperside of the ship’s structure, several decks with luxury cars burned out. The fire suddenly started in an EV. Only thing they could do was cooling the remaining structure of this ship and wait untill the fire extinguished itself, hoping this ship would not capsize and/or sink.

https://kustwacht.nl/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Nachtbeeld-brandende-Fremantle-Highway.jpgView attachment 151604

Fremantle Highway - Kustwacht Nederland

Aan boord van de Fremantle Highway ontstond op dinsdag 25 juli 2023 brand. Het schip voer toen 27 kilometer noord van Ameland. Nadat de brand zich uitbreidde over het schip werden de 23 bemanningsleden geëvacueerd. Eén persoon is helaas overleden. Het was een ingewikkelde reddingsoperatie door...

kustwacht.nl

Multiple sites that follow the shipping or auto industries have now reported that while the cause is still officially unknown, the areas where the fire occured on the Fremantle Highway were not the levels where the EVs we stored.

 

[mmckenna]

Multiple sites that follow the shipping or auto industries have now reported that while the cause is still officially unknown, the areas where the fire occured on the Fremantle Highway were not the levels where the EVs we stored.

I think this is important.
There is a lot of effort to paint electric vehicles in a bad light. I know many people that own EV's and never once has any of them suddenly burst into flames.
Now, ask me how many people I know that have owned gas powered vehicles that have burned to the ground, some while just sitting there, not running. It's more than the number of EV's….
Easier to extinguish? Yes. But in my experience, a much lager issue.

I've had lithium ion computer, phone, radio and tool batteries for many, many years, and none of them have suddenly caught on fire.
I've got probably 600 radios at work running Li Ion batteries, and never once have they burst into flames. That's probably somewhere around 1,200 batteries, many sitting in chargers on desks. Guess how many of those are stored in special containers...

Batteries can absolutely fail. More often than not, it is due to abuse. Obviously this one failed catastrophically, but that shouldn't indicate that this as wide spread an issue as some would like you to think.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I think this is important.
There is a lot of effort to paint electric vehicles in a bad light. I know many people that own EV's and never once has any of them suddenly burst into flames.
Now, ask me how many people I know that have owned gas powered vehicles that have burned to the ground, some while just sitting there, not running. It's more than the number of EV's….
Easier to extinguish? Yes. But in my experience, a much lager issue.

I've had lithium ion computer, phone, radio and tool batteries for many, many years, and none of them have suddenly caught on fire.
I've got probably 600 radios at work running Li Ion batteries, and never once have they burst into flames. That's probably somewhere around 1,200 batteries, many sitting in chargers on desks. Guess how many of those are stored in special containers...

Batteries can absolutely fail. More often than not, it is due to abuse. Obviously this one failed catastrophically, but that shouldn't indicate that this as wide spread an issue as some would like you to think.

EV's pose special problems. One is the increased weight which means they have a lot of kinetic energy when striking an ICE vehicle. It will probably be found that a lot of older parking garages cannot sustain the weight of so many EV vehicles parked in them. I am not loving those Tesla's. They are not going to save the planet. Tesla owners are starting to realize that charging them is a hassle. In 53 years of driving I have seen only 3 "Chebbie Del Fuego's" burning on the road. A fourth was at a garage I worked at where a dumb mechanic cranked the engine with the fuel pump disconnected from the car bowl.

Getting back to lithium ion batteries. Sadly I am not the sole decision maker in the household. So I was not surprised when some battery powered tools arrived from Amazon, a Chinese weed whipper and leaf blower package that came with two powerful batteries that are clones of some popular tool brand, but lack all the niceties of certification. I was forewarned of the purchase. I would be remiss in forgetting that I have repacked some NICD packs with lithium Ion and BMS. Those too lack any certification and are only as good as my limited craftsmanship. So yeah, a bit nervous about how and where charged.

 

[cavmedic]

First one that posts a link to the bags is the hero of the day! Sounds like the route to take.
Somehow I thought the ammo box deal might not be good. Glad I only spent 10 bucks at a local thrift.

I have one charging area, don't charge anything while I'm asleep and unplug everything if I go out.

Edit: Checked Amazon and the only storage bags they have mention lipo and li-ion. Same thing?
Finally taking this seriously!

Search any hobby store or online retailer for RC batteries.

 

[mmckenna]

EV's pose special problems. One is the increased weight which means they have a lot of kinetic energy when striking an ICE vehicle.

Tesla model 3, the one my sister has, is 3600lbs curb weight.
Toyota Camry is 3340lbs curb weight.

So, roughly the equivalent of an extra passenger and their stuff.

Tesla owners are starting to realize that charging them is a hassle.

It's different, that's for sure. But you're married, so you know any road trip comes with extra stops anyway. My sister regularly takes hers on a 340 mile trip up to their cabin. We timed it once, she arrived about 20 minutes after me in my truck. One big burrito and she would have beat me… No problem finding chargers out this way. They are getting to be as common as gas stations.

But, no, not the right tool for cross country road trips. But that's not the sort of driving she mostly does.
Gotta have the right tool for the job, and this isn't the right tool for everyone. Thankfully, we have choices.

Getting back to lithium ion batteries.

I'm not seeing Li Ion batteries being a huge issue. Like I said, I've got about 1,200 of them on site, some are probably 12 years old. No issues. If they were going to burst into flames on everyone's desk, I would have expected it to happen by now.

It's also one of the reasons I don't use knock-off cheap batteries in our radios. Sure, I can find $25 replacements on Amazon, but I know better.

 

[HM1529]

It's also one of the reasons I don't use knock-off cheap batteries in our radios. Sure, I can find $25 replacements on Amazon, but I know better.

This right here. Knock-offs and abused batteries are the main issues in consumer products.

As for EV fires, well, the media coverage, as with shark attacks, makes them seem much more common than they are.

https://www.motortrend.com/features/you-are-wrong-about-ev-fires/

If you look at the stats in the Motortrend link, you'll see EVs are a small fraction of overall vehicle fires. The biggest challenge is not that these things catch on fire all the time...just that when they do, if it involves the battery packs, the fires are more stubborn to put out. Given the constant changes to technology and the tons of research going into battery systems, I suspect lithium ion tech won't be around all that much longer.

FSRI and UL are good sources of information on what's really happening with lithium ion battery systems. Also, to slightly correct another poster, lithium ion and lithium metal battery technologies are different. Primary lithium metal batteries are the type that contain elemental (and reactive lithium metal). In lithium ion batteries, it's not the lithium that behaves badly. The fluorine based electrolytes and flammable solvents that evolve hydrogen gas (flammable) and hydrogen fluoride gas (toxic) under abuse are the real issue.

Know more about Lithium-Ion Battery Symposium Resource Library

Get to learn more about Lithium-Ion Battery Symposium Resource Library

fsri.org

 

[mmckenna]

As for EV fires, well, the media coverage, as with shark attacks….

*cringe*
I know two people that were attacked by sharks. One survived and one didn't.

If you look at the stats in the Motortrend link, you'll see EVs are a small fraction of overall vehicle fires. The biggest challenge is not that these things catch on fire all the time...just that when they do, if it involves the battery packs, the fires are more stubborn to put out.

Exactly.

Given the constant changes to technology and the tons of research going into battery systems, I suspect lithium ion tech won't be around all that much longer.

Right. There's some amazing technology in the pipes that will change the battery world. A lot of minds much smarter than ours are working on this. Lithium Ion isn't the end of the road for battery technology. It's just the current solution that works best and is affordable.

That's one thing that is amazing about humans, we are always figuring out new ways to do things. The country was based on advancing technology, and we shouldn't assume that we are not capable for more and better things.

Renewable energies are big in the research world right now, and will continue to advance. That's going to require energy storage systems. There's a lot of big companies that don't want you to think that renewable energy systems will ever be better than coal and oil. That just doesn't play into their profit plans, so there's a ton of effort put into distracting the attention of the consumer. Just like the claims about wind generation blades, battery recycling, etc. Recycling is all about what is profitable at any given moment. Technology catches up.

FSRI and UL are good sources of information on what's really happening with lithium ion battery systems. Also, to slightly correct another poster, lithium ion and lithium metal battery technologies are different. Primary lithium metal batteries are the type that contain elemental (and reactive lithium metal). In lithium ion batteries, it's not the lithium that behaves badly. The fluorine based electrolytes and flammable solvents that evolve hydrogen gas (flammable) and hydrogen fluoride gas (toxic) under abuse are the real issue.

Know more about Lithium-Ion Battery Symposium Resource Library

Get to learn more about Lithium-Ion Battery Symposium Resource Library

fsri.org

I did not know that. Thanks for sharing.

 

[fog]

EV's pose special problems. One is the increased weight which means they have a lot of kinetic energy when striking an ICE vehicle. It will probably be found that a lot of older parking garages cannot sustain the weight of so many EV vehicles parked in them. I am not loving those Tesla's. They are not going to save the planet. Tesla owners are starting to realize that charging them is a hassle. In 53 years of driving I have seen only 3 "Chebbie Del Fuego's" burning on the road. A fourth was at a garage I worked at where a dumb mechanic cranked the engine with the fuel pump disconnected from the car bowl.

Ford quotes a huge range on weights, but the minimum curb weight for my (gasoline) F150 is greater than the maximum curb weight for the Model 3, and the Model S comes in right in the middle of the F150 range. I also keep about 150 pounds of sandbags over the back wheels, which my friend with a Model 3 has no need for. (He also doesn't have the added weight of a lowband Syntor, but that one's his loss.) When I have to go into the city, the parking garage has a lot more trucks like mine than EVs. I don't think the parking garages have a problem.

The last time I rode in a Tesla was a 450 mile road trip. With a 36-gallon tank I could have technically done it nonstop if I drove. Based on specs, he could have made the trip only stopping to charge once. We stopped three times, one because we wanted lunch, one because we were low on charge, and one because I had to pee.

None of the people I know with Teslas bought them because they're diehard environmentalists.

I'm not trading my F150 in anytime soon, but some of these arguments against electric cars are pretty contrived.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Apples and Oranges

2024 Ford F-150 Lightning/Curb weight:
6,015 to 6,893 lbs

2001 Ford F-150 SVT Lightning/Curb weight:
4,670 lbs

2024 Ford Expedition/Curb weight
5,443 to 5,623 lbs

2001 Ford Expedition/Curb weight
4,891 to 5,468 lbs

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

Ford quotes a huge range on weights, but the minimum curb weight for my (gasoline) F150 is greater than the maximum curb weight for the Model 3, and the Model S comes in right in the middle of the F150 range. I also keep about 150 pounds of sandbags over the back wheels, which my friend with a Model 3 has no need for. (He also doesn't have the added weight of a lowband Syntor, but that one's his loss.) When I have to go into the city, the parking garage has a lot more trucks like mine than EVs. I don't think the parking garages have a problem.

The last time I rode in a Tesla was a 450 mile road trip. With a 36-gallon tank I could have technically done it nonstop if I drove. Based on specs, he could have made the trip only stopping to charge once. We stopped three times, one because we wanted lunch, one because we were low on charge, and one because I had to pee.

None of the people I know with Teslas bought them because they're diehard environmentalists.

I'm not trading my F150 in anytime soon, but some of these arguments against electric cars are pretty contrived.

The LB Syntor is important here, don't be keying that near any Tesla's or the sparks might start flying. Hey,, I gotta try that!

Smart diehard environmentalist are paying $40K to restore a 1980's Land Rover or Bronco to save from the landfill.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

I know two people that were attacked by sharks. One survived and one didn't.

I worked with a guy once whose elbow was pretty messed up. What happened? A shark! I had no idea it happened so often.

 

[RFI-EMI-GUY]

That's one thing that is amazing about humans, we are always figuring out new ways to do things. The country was based on advancing technology, and we shouldn't assume that we are not capable for more and better things.

We need to cut back on deforestation and plant more trees. CO2 is what plants crave, not Brawndo, One word (Benjamin): Photosynthesis. And certainly not by mechanically sequestering CO2 into a salt cavern using fossil fuel energy to run the pumps. Humans are Idiots.. Only ideas that create wealth are considered.

 

[mmckenna]

I worked with a guy once whose elbow was pretty messed up. What happened? A shark! I had no idea it happened so often.

Yeah, me neither. Couldn't believe it. The one that survived was on Discovery Channel during Shark Week for an interview. She was fortunate that a police officer was nearby and was able to toss a quick tourniquet on her leg. She's got some pretty impressive scars and a great story to tell. She still is an avid surfer. I think she thinks the odds of getting bit again are pretty low. Apparently the first shark didn't find her tasty enough to finish his dinner.

 

[mmckenna]

We need to cut back on deforestation and plant more trees. CO2 is what plants crave, not Brawndo, One word (Benjamin): Photosynthesis. And certainly not by mechanically sequestering CO2 into a salt cavern using fossil fuel energy to run the pumps. Humans are Idiots.. Only ideas that create wealth are considered.

Ha, just wanted that movie for the 2nd time last week. More people need to see that…. That Not Sure guy knew his stuff.

 

[12dbsinad]

I'm not seeing Li Ion batteries being a huge issue. Like I said, I've got about 1,200 of them on site, some are probably 12 years old. No issues. If they were going to burst into flames on everyone's desk, I would have expected it to happen by now.

Go ask FDNY about this, they'll disagree with you. The more are out there, the more the risk, and the more companies push products with sub-par batteries/chargers because it's all about who can build it the cheapest.

It's like comparing EV fires to ICE vehicle fires. There are A LOT of fires with these things considering the very SMALL percentage of them in the US. Imagine if the roles are flipped. You already are seeing many precautions about charging them like not in parking garages. And when they start you just don't put them out with a small ABC extinguisher or even attempt. To think these people are charging them in their home garage while they and kids are asleep... NO THANK YOU.