Livingston County NY

[RF-Burns]

You're blaming a reduction in volunteers on the technology of the radio system??!?!

So much for a rational discussion...

Yes it is a true statement. Well seasoned firefighters with years and years of experience to teach the probies have walked out of the firehouse because of this radio system. They feel the system in its current state is inadequate and provides a severe life hazard to them. Personally I can't blame them. The system is a disaster and the sheriff should take steps now to improve it. One tower on Asbury Rd in LeRoy isn't going to fix a countywide issue. Just ask the Sheriff Deputies or the local PDs, they have resorted to cellphones.

 

[N0BDW]

Let's get back on topic here please. This thread was started to discuss listening to Livingston County's new radio system, not talk about volunteers in Genesee County quitting over radios.

 

[RF-Burns]

Let's get back on topic here please. This thread was started to discuss listening to Livingston County's new radio system, not talk about volunteers in Genesee County quitting over radios.

My apologies. Volunteers in Livingston will be doing the same thing in the near future if the system isn't built correctly. One firefighter being trapped and unable to call for help with the new top of the line TDMA Radio System with be all it takes just like that county to your west - End of rant

 

[ThePagerGeek]

TDMA has nothing to do with it. You're blaming TDMA for what would be caused by coverage issues....

But that's not the point, right Dan? It's about the children...

 

[GTR8000]

My apologies. Volunteers in Livingston will be doing the same thing in the near future if the system isn't built correctly. One firefighter being trapped and unable to call for help with the new top of the line TDMA Radio System with be all it takes just like that county to your west - End of rant

Oh please, they shouldn't be using anything other than analog simplex for fireground comms anyway. If any fire dept, volunteer or otherwise, is using repeated/digital/trunking for interior ops, they are creating their own life safety issues by being foolish. K.I.S.S.

Now as N0BDW requested, let's get back on topic instead of coming up with all sorts of reasons to rail against TDMA systems. :roll:

 

[Thunderknight]

Let's look within the State for an example. Rockland County has a 700 phase 2 system.But Fire ground ops are on UHF simplex. The county sites have receivers (just receivers) for the fireground uhf so they can be monitored (be presumably recorded) at 44 Control.
A mix of solutions.

 

[RF-Burns]

TDMA has nothing to do with it. You're blaming TDMA for what would be caused by coverage issues....

But that's not the point, right Dan? It's about the children...

Haha well Tim It's not about the children you and I both know that. In an area that is already deprived of state funding, volunteers, equipment, and so on to me and many others it simply doesn't make sense. A good salesman can sell an Eskimo ice and apparently the local sales rep did.

 

[N0BDW]

My apologies. Volunteers in Livingston will be doing the same thing in the near future if the system isn't built correctly. One firefighter being trapped and unable to call for help with the new top of the line TDMA Radio System with be all it takes just like that county to your west - End of rant

We have 4 analog simplex channels for fireground use, including a channel dedicated to FAST/RIT.

I've been training the FFs in my department that we'll be going off-system for any interior ops. I'd recommend to anyone else they do the same. Command (and probably any other officers as well) will monitor both a system channel and the off-system channel.

There has been some discussion about the county providing a feed but no promises yet. Even if they do, I perfer having my own radios. Feeds just don't do it for me. They are handy to have while away from the scanners but I'd always prefer my own scanner(s).

Hopefully Uniden will fix their firmware bug in the x36 series with the population of the band plan for this particular TDMA system. At a minimum, it should be possible to force the scanner to respect the band plan manually input in Sentinel.

 

[ThePagerGeek]

Haha well Tim It's not about the children you and I both know that. In an area that is already deprived of state funding, volunteers, equipment, and so on to me and many others it simply doesn't make sense. A good salesman can sell an Eskimo ice and apparently the local sales rep did.

No other reason that I can think of you'd argue that TDMA is the root of all evil. It HAS to be the children...

Let's see:

Orleans County P25 Upgrade = State Funding
Genesee County P25 Upgrade = State Funding\Rebanding
Ontario County P25 Upgrade = State Funding
Livingston County P25 Upgrade = State Funding
Monroe County Site Additions = State Funding

Requirement from the state to use the funding? = P25, the open standard requirement that follows the federal guidelines for grant funding. Makes sense.

Ok, so welcome to the 21st century... P25 trunking for better frequency usage and TDMA technology for improved system capacity. Makes sense again.

Ok... let's see... off-network (simplex) for tactical operations? All but Monroe already have that in place, and Monroe County doesn't have FD operations migrated yet... spec'd for 2020. Makes sense... again.

What else? How about patching dispatch to conventional analog channel for paging so responders can receive and listen to the dispatches from a voice pager? Yes, all of the Counties have that...

So... what is the issue again? Coverage? Maybe so, but that's why they all have off-network options.

I'm running out of arguments... It's the children? Right?

 

[RF-Burns]

Tens of millions of dollars being spent to run calls off network because these systems are disasterous. Enough said.

City after city has turned off TDMA Phase II and FDMA P25 because of its terrible characteristics and it's unreliability in emergency communications.

We can go back and fourth on this all we want, the fact of the matter is we have different opinions on this. You being who you are and people knowing your involvement in the radio business in Monroe County along with the position you hold on the Communications Advisory Board makes you a bit biased. Sorry in my opinion it does, maybe not everyones.

Radio guy to radio guy digital TMDA Phase II isn't what it's all cracked up to be. Putting up DMR school district radio systems is just a bit different than emergency communications.

Merry Christmas to you and yours, it's bin a long time since our last interaction

 

[ThePagerGeek]

10's of millions of dollars for the 99% of calls that don't need to be off-network is the reason for the expense. That makes sense. The 1% risk of system-dependent communications for fireground operations is the reason to have the option to move off network. However, that's not the majority of communications.

I'm actually not biased, believe it or not. I'm going based on facts. The radio business for me is service, not sales. Doesn't matter if it's high-end TDMA digital trunking or low-end conventional analog simplex. As for my involvement on the Board, we didn't make the decision to go TDMA, or even trunking for that matter. That decision was made for us by the County before we were even told it was coming. That's just politics. If anything, I "should" be biased AGAINST it, but I am not. The entire system makes sense. But I appreciate the attempt to discredit me.

More cities are going to P25, and Phase 2. In fact, another few counties in NY are on their way to Phase 2, beyond Livingston. TDMA isn't evil. It's been around a lot longer than public safety has had access to it.

The key to technology is to understand its capabilities and limitations. Then apply both of those to various risk factors and scenarios to come up with the best solution. Simple as that.

Opinions vary, but you'll continue to see agencies move to P25 and TDMA, like it or not. Once this LTE stuff is sorted out, you will likely see another wave of technology get pushed out. Embrace it, understand it... or get left behind in a huff with your arms crossed, just like you are doing now.

Do it for the children...

That's all I got...
Merry Xmas

 

[GTR8000]

City after city has turned off TDMA Phase II and FDMA P25 because of its terrible characteristics and it's unreliability in emergency communications.

If you're going to make a claim like that, cite some factual, current examples; not hearsay and anecdotal "evidence".

Radio guy to radio guy digital TMDA Phase II isn't what it's all cracked up to be.

Again, cite facts, please. Otherwise your position is based on nothing except "I heard that such and such a system sounds lousy from a guy who told a friend who posted it online..." silliness, and perhaps you are the one who is biased here. It sure seems that way!

It's funny, but for all of the negative doomsday stuff you keep bringing up about TDMA systems being a nightmare and failure, I can count on one hand the amount of legitimate complaints my local 700 MHz TDMA 12 RF subsite simulcast ASTRO 25 system has generated in the 3.5 years it has been operational.

You know, based on the testimony of the actual subscribers on the system, not Betty Bearcat trying to listen to her husband operating at that rip roaring dumpster fire in town! :lol:

 

[DaveNF2G]

There is a lot of urban-rural snobbery not-so-deeply hidden in this thread. Most people seem to assume that the rest of the state/country/world is just like their own neighborhood. All communities are not the same and do not have the same needs, funding, hazards, population density, demographics, etc.... Yet government (and lobbyists/manufacturers/salespeople) push technology as "one size fits all" solutions for problems that most places don't even have.

Just because Phase II is the greatest thing since sliced bread for your area does not mean that it is not a disaster someplace else. And vice-versa.

 

[DaveNF2G]

Orleans County P25 Upgrade = State Funding
Genesee County P25 Upgrade = State Funding\Rebanding
Ontario County P25 Upgrade = State Funding
Livingston County P25 Upgrade = State Funding
Monroe County Site Additions = State Funding

Requirement from the state to use the funding? = P25, the open standard requirement that follows the federal guidelines for grant funding. Makes sense.

New York State also requires that a funded system be built by a regional interoperability consortium, which forces the players to use mutually compatible technology.

 

[N0BDW]

which forces the players to use mutually compatible technology.

Heh, if only that were true. We still can't talk to Ontario County, though our system is brand new and theirs is only a couple years old.

 

[ThePagerGeek]

New York State also requires that a funded system be built by a regional interoperability consortium, which forces the players to use mutually compatible technology.

This is partially true. The state provides funding to members of a consortium, but doesn't stipulate anything beyond that. No operational requirements to that effect.

 

[ThePagerGeek]

There is a lot of urban-rural snobbery not-so-deeply hidden in this thread. Most people seem to assume that the rest of the state/country/world is just like their own neighborhood. All communities are not the same and do not have the same needs, funding, hazards, population density, demographics, etc.... Yet government (and lobbyists/manufacturers/salespeople) push technology as "one size fits all" solutions for problems that most places don't even have.

Just because Phase II is the greatest thing since sliced bread for your area does not mean that it is not a disaster someplace else. And vice-versa.

The discussion has nothing to do with what works in one area vs another. Not sure where you get that from at all.

My point is, once you cross the bridge to trunking... Phase 2 makes sense. That's all, no deeper meaning,

 

[GTR8000]

It appears that some have a fundamental lack of understanding of the technology and facts, and thus are unable to form an educated opinion. Instead, emotional and anecdotal arguments have to be employed.

 

[ak716]

Heh, if only that were true. We still can't talk to Ontario County, though our system is brand new and theirs is only a couple years old.

That's up to your system admin to take care of such issues and plan accordingly. I don't know exactly what Ontario County uses, seeing how I don't monitor it, but according to the DB, Ontario could be on the 700/800 TRS or the 400's. The Livingston Co system is VHF-Hi, different band splits. What other counties do is have patches to maintain interoperability (ie. Erie Co vs Genesee Co UHF patch) or, buy dual band radio's so users can come onto each others systems if they are on different bands.

The systems are only as good as the admin and the end user. If you don't understand how it works, it doesn't mean its garbage. I wish my county had one, but we are behind the times. I'm actually kinda jealous of what you guys have going right now.

I think everyone can agree Phase Two is great for spectrum efficiency, you get more voice paths for your money than analog.

Take the time to understand what you have and learn the pearls and pitfalls of your system before you complain about it.

 

[N0BDW]

That's up to your system admin to take care of such issues and plan accordingly. I don't know exactly what Ontario County uses, seeing how I don't monitor it, but according to the DB, Ontario could be on the 700/800 TRS or the 400's. The Livingston Co system is VHF-Hi, different band splits. What other counties do is have patches to maintain interoperability (ie. Erie Co vs Genesee Co UHF patch) or, buy dual band radio's so users can come onto each others systems if they are on different bands.

The systems are only as good as the admin and the end user. If you don't understand how it works, it doesn't mean its garbage. I wish my county had one, but we are behind the times. I'm actually kinda jealous of what you guys have going right now.

I think everyone can agree Phase Two is great for spectrum efficiency, you get more voice paths for your money than analog.

Take the time to understand what you have and learn the pearls and pitfalls of your system before you complain about it.

I'm not complaining. And I didn't say the system is garbage. In fact as a subscriber I'm quite happy with it. I'm not thrilled with scanner manufacturers for having not kept up with the technology as well as they arguably should have, but that in no way reflects poorly on the system itself.

And yes TDMA does make infinite sense for Livingston Co. Once you've decided to go P25 trunking the choice between FDMA and TDMA... TDMA makes a lot of sense when you have to coordinate every frequency through Canada.

Edit: also, yes, you are correct that Ontario is a 700 MHz system, while Livingston is VHF-Hi. Going to 700 would've meant the need for 3x as many towers, which would've meant little to no subscriber equipment. Likewise buying dual band radios would've been nice, but we're already short subscriber equipment as it is.