Loss of two meter simplex frequencies EMINENT in Texas!

[wx5vhf]

Loss of two meter simplex frequencies EMINENT in Texas!



Texas two meter simplex users stand to lose a large portion of available frequencies if proposed changes to the two meter band plan are passed by the Texas VHF-FM Society.

In an effort to make room for D-Star repeater pairs, the Society has proposed a revised band plan that will take spectrum from two meter simplex users statewide.
Below is the band plan being proposed by the Texas VHF-FM Society:
146.450 - 146.490 MHz, High in/low out, 1 MHz offset, 12.5 kHz channel spacing or less, any
digital voice/data air interface technology suitable for the Amateur Radio Service that is compatible with the channel spacing. No analog transmission permitted.
145.520 Analog
145.540 Analog
145.560 Analog
145.580 Analog
145.600 Analog
145.620 Analog
145.640 Analog
145.660 Analog
145.680 Analog
145.700 Analog
145.720 Analog
145.740 Analog
145.760 Analog
145.780 Analog
146.420 Analog
146.440 Analog
146.450 Digital }
146.460 Digital }
146.470 Digital }--------------- Simplex allocations that will be lost due to proposed restructuring.
146.480 Digital }
146.490 Digital }
146.560 Analog
146.580 Analog
147.400 Analog
147.420 Analog
147.440 Analog
147.450 Digital }
147.460 Digital }
147.470 Digital }-------------- Simplex allocations that will be lost due to proposed restructuring.
147.480 Digital }
147.490 Digital }
147.560 Analog
147.580 Analog


This proposal was placed on the table at the March 1, 2008 General Meeting of the Texas VHF-FM Society and has yet to be voted on, possibly due to opposition from avid simplex users.

Contrary to public opinion, two meter simplex frequencies are regularly, and in some cases heavily used throughout the state.

A well-established group of simplex operators in north and east Texas have used the frequency of 147.420 on a daily basis since the mid 1970’s. While that frequency is not in immediate danger of being reallocated, other well used frequencies are!

A group of simplex operators around the Cedar Creek Lake area in eastern Texas that regularly use the frequency of 146.475 stands to lose that piece of spectrum.

146.500 is another frequency currently being used on a regular basis by hams from Dallas all the way down into the Waco area that is on the chopping block.

I’m sure there are many more frequencies all across the state that are in use that we do not know about! If anyone knows of other simplex frequencies in use in the state of Texas please feel free to e-mail me at WX5VHF@gmail.com

In an effort to display the utilization of these simplex frequencies I am asking for all Texas two meter simplex operators to attend and cast a vote at the Texas VHF-FM Society’s Summer Meeting that will take place at Austin Summerfest 2011. The meeting will be held Saturday, August 6th at 1:00PM in the Pecan Room of the Austin Marriott Airport South at 4415 South Interstate 35 in Austin.
In order to vote at this meeting you MUST be a member of the Society! To become a member you must download the form from the link below and send it back with $15.00. (I guess it’s sort of like a poll tax?)
http://www.txvhffm.com/images/Forms/membership application.pdf

I believe I speak for most all avid simplex operators when I say, I am in no way anti D-Star. New technology and operating modes are the life blood of amateur radio. What I am against is reallocation of simplex spectrum as repeater pairs! D-star or analog, a repeater is a repeater and should be placed on frequencies that are already allocated for that purpose. If all of the repeater pairs are in use then get on the waiting list; just as analog repeater owners do. What is the rush?

Hams always say “Use it, or lose it” when it comes to radio spectrum. Well, this time it’s being used and we still may lose it!

 

[texasemt13]

I completely understand your concern, but I think we need to remember...

These are merely suggestions, and while yes, they may "govern" (to the extent that they have no de facto authority to govern or enforce) frequency usage in Texas, the bandplans are suggestions. If you enjoy using that frequency for FM analog simplex, then go ahead and do it. The Society can't stop you or take your license away. Put a tone on your transmit side, use the minimum amount of power necessary and you won't piss anyone off. Your analog simplex operations shouldn't harm a digital repeater at all (or kerchunk it, key it up, interfere, etc.). Just transmit.

Especially in this state, we have a real proud VHF-FM Society. If any backlash would occur, it would be someone in the Society (with a voice) getting pissed off and about the only recourse they have would be to not issue you a repeater pair later down the road. I wouldn't worry about it too much.

Remember the FCC advises that we follow common practice and in general, stick to bandplans. They aren't enforcing amateur bandplans anywhere, that I've ever heard of, unless it causes harmful interference, so you're safe.

I too use 2m analog simplex on a regular basis (almost daily), so I'm not immune to this bandplan either. I also use 2m digital simplex. I'll end with a question- these are repeater pairs for digital voice operation correct, not just D-Star, but all digital voice modes right?

 

[emd001]

While I am not currently an avid simplex user (might be after reading about all the use today, need to scan more i guess!) I was thinking the exact same thing as Texasemt13. Its not like the frequencies are going to be taken out of hams hands, its just going to be a guideline setup by the fm society.

@Texasemt13 to answer your question posed at the end, im on a couple of mailing lists and I have seen the topic of setting up different allocations for D-star repeaters come up a couple of times. I think they are saying it is for digital repeaters but I have only seen D-star named in the conversations.

 

[texasemt13]

@Texasemt13 to answer your question posed at the end, im on a couple of mailing lists and I have seen the topic of setting up different allocations for D-star repeaters come up a couple of times. I think they are saying it is for digital repeaters but I have only seen D-star named in the conversations.

Agreed, the conversation is only addressing D-STAR as if it were the only digital voice mode. The Society should be aware that there are many more (though it looks like only 2, D-STAR and P25, are being used in the 2m band right now). That being said, the Society should address digital repeater pairs as well as mixed mode repeater pairs (for those repeaters capable of both analog and which ever flavor of DV they choose). D-STAR and digital are not synonymous, D-STAR is a digital mode, though not the only one.

Still, an analog FM signal shouldn't even be recognized by a digital repeater (assuming the receiver is purely digital, not being converted from analog to digital), so it would not cause interference to it.*

 

[kb0nly]

Those are merely "gentlemens agreements" as for the use of the band. Not a legally binding regulation. If your licensed to use the 2m band you can do what you want where you want. Obviously within reason, i am not advocating that you sit and talk simplex on a repeater input or output, that could be deemed as malicious interference, but otherwise if your no interfering with someone else they can't stop you from operating simplex.

D-Star... Pfft... I could care less. Radios too expensive, not enough people own the capability. Not worth buying a radio for where i live. Not to mention there isnt any Yaesu's with D-Star yet... LOL

 

[texasemt13]

Obviously within reason, i am not advocating that you sit and talk simplex on a repeater input or output, that could be deemed as malicious interference, but otherwise if your no interfering with someone else they can't stop you from operating simplex.

My point exactly. Even if a local repeater did use your simplex frequency, it's a digital receiver, the point is moot, we're talking analog radios trying to work on a digital receiver- can't/won't happen.

The people (analoggers) who will notice the interference are the ones who aren't able to use tones, they'll hear a digital buzz during a digital tx. Solution: use tones on tx and rx! It isn't hard to coordinate tone use between some locals- choose an atypical one (I always hated 74.4 Hz, 183.5 Hz and 210.7 Hz).

Don't like that idea? Well it isn't exclusively your frequency either...

 

[motorola_otaku]

Grab your umbrellas 'cause the sky is falling! :lol:

I have nothing against issues of pertinent interest being brought to the attention of a community outside of normal channels (e.g. posting an amateur radio topic in a state scanning forum.) But I don't think it's too much to ask that the people doing so not use alarmist language (it makes you look silly and immediately turns your audience off) and (heaven forbid) do some research on the topic before shouting it from the rooftops. There's a reason this has been going on for three years now without a conclusion reached one way or the other.

This also serves to highlight the fact that what goes on in the meeting room, what goes on over the internet, and what goes on in the real world are at least two and sometimes three very different things. A lot of folks out there hold the belief that "the Society ain't the boss of me" and pay little or no heed to their proclamations from On High, or the chatter of internet folk. Bottom line is, it's a big state, there's a lot of spectrum, and not enough kilocycle cops to cover it all. ;p

 

[RADIOUSER5]

Note that tones are a squelch system - they will not keep two strong radio signals on the same frequency from interfering with each other. They will prevent keying up a repeater unless you are transmitting the correct tone. Different tones may not allow two people to use the same frequency without interference.

 

[texasemt13]

Agreed, but in this case no analog user will be keying up any digital repeaters. Yes, you are correct to say that "different tones may not allow two people to use the same frequency without interference." I could have explained this better. The analog user trying to listen to another analog user, may in fact get the digital signal better, and that radio might still unsquelch, especially if another analog user is transmitting with the correct tone. Still I'll reiterate...

The frequency doesn't belong to you just as much as it doesn't belong to them. I understand that the VHF and up bands become channelized, and there is only just so much room, but it doesn't hurt anyone to spin the knob a little. We do it below 30 MHz, why can't you do it above?

 

[W2NJS]

Not to put too fine a point on the discussion, but it IS possible for two people to use the same repeater channel AT THE SAME TIME if they're using what we call DMR, maybe better known as TRBO. This isn't the place to explain how it works, but it does, and on my local DMR UHF repeater I can choose channel 1 to talk to locals only, or channel 2 to IP connect to many other worldwide repeaters, leaving the channel that I don't connect to for others to use. And it's all done on a 12.5 kHz channel that is digitally split into two usable voice or data areas. New ways of doing things are not in the future, they're here already, and in use on a daily basis. Maybe it's time for more of us to stop thinking in terms of analog FM, one-user at a time, methods and move on to where the spectrum we're allowed is more efficiently used.

 

[n5gqb]

The Corsicana Dstar repeater on 147.480 (input on 146.480) is unusable at times due to interference from simplex users on 146.480. They apparently run a lot of power that it is impossible (at times) to get into the repeater unless you are running 50wts in town. From what I know of the simplex users are in a different city to boot. IMO they are do it on purpose just to wreak havoc on the Corsicana system.
Running a PL tone may block out the the digital noise on your receiver but you will cause interference to the dstar system (as with any repeater) when you transmit, esp on the input.

Personally I think they should not allocate digital repeaters (whether dstar or not) in the simplex band. Not sure how that even got started. I think better spots could've been found or better yet let them be allocated with the rest of repeaters. If a distant analog repeater users complain about the hash noise from a distant digital repeater then they should put a tone squelch on their repeater.
With that said, there are strong arguments on both sides of this issue
I will be at the meeting...albeit a fly on the wall.