Loudoun Police Chase 12-10-09

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mike_s104

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Anyone know about a police chase through Loudoun going east on the Dulles Greenway @ RT7? Greenway was shutdown about 1545. Of course we wouldn't know from listening on the scanner, but someone may have caught something from VA State Poilce traffic.
 

freqhopping

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I could tell it was going on by what I heard on the Sterling channel. Of course a few minutes after it was over the Dulles channel came 'online'. :roll:

Clarke Co started the pursuit and chased them east on Rt7. It sounded like some other people got caught by the stop sticks too. One unit advised dispatcher that he'd deal with any reports from people that may have been hit by the the fleeing vehicle.
 

mike_s104

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Well, no one heard it start either since Clarke Co. feel the need to scramble everything. They're probably going to scramble the EMS freqs.

I can only image (since I can't hear either county) that interop nightmare. They better get the deputies in both counties all Nextels with PTT. Clarke'll probably get Boost Mobile just to be different. "Where you at, G?" <-- dispatcher calling the lead officer.

I need to find another hobby before it turns into "Remember back in the day when you could listen to the police radios? What fun it was." As I talk to my new pal Ralph in the nursing home.

Sorry, didn't mean to make it a rant. :)
 
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mike_s104

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Loudoun County, VA: A suspect who fled from authorities in Clarke County, Virginia has been apprehended after being involved in a high-speed pursuit that ended near the Town of Leesburg.

Around 3:20 p.m. December 10th Loudoun Sheriff&#8217;s Deputies were advised that a vehicle fled from law enforcement after a traffic stop in Clarke County and was entering Loudoun County on eastbound Route 7. The subject struck one other vehicle while fleeing from authorities. There were no serious injuries reported.

The vehicle traveled at a high rate of speed and its tires were damaged by two stop-sticks placed in the vehicle&#8217;s path during the pursuit. The vehicle continued to drive on at least three flat tires before being stopped shortly after 3:30 p.m. on Route 7 near the Dulles Greenway interchange.

The suspect was taken into custody and charges are pending. More details will be released as they become available.

Residents who believe their vehicle may have been damaged during the incident are asked to file a report with the Loudoun County Sheriff&#8217;s Office at 703-777-1021.
 

leonzo

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I agree that having the ability to monitor Clarke County Sheriff, and the Loudoun County Sheriff Office would have made for better communications between the 5 different law enforcement agencies involved in the pursuit on Thursday. No one can monitor Clarke Sheriff so until they used a telephone to call the Loudoun Communications Center and the person who answers the phone types in the information to their computer and then sends it to the dispatcher who then voices it over the air, well it took some time to do all of that.

Then the state trooper sitting on route 7 had no idea a pursuit was coming because he either doesn't have a scanner, or if he had a Loudoun County portable didn't have it on, or if he had it on it doesn't work anymore because he has an old one and not the new APX version and the old ones don't pick up the new Loudoun system.

While "interoperability" is a neat buzzword and can get you all sorts of federal government dollars it doesn't really exsist when agencies use the money to buy unmonitorable radio sstems that not only shut out scanner listeners but also people like deputies, officers, troopers and communications centers who used to have the ability to monitor agencies around them before we went to interoperable unmonitorable radio systems.

Ok I feel better now!
 

mike_s104

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I agree that having the ability to monitor Clarke County Sheriff, and the Loudoun County Sheriff Office would have made for better communications between the 5 different law enforcement agencies involved in the pursuit on Thursday. No one can monitor Clarke Sheriff so until they used a telephone to call the Loudoun Communications Center and the person who answers the phone types in the information to their computer and then sends it to the dispatcher who then voices it over the air, well it took some time to do all of that.

Then the state trooper sitting on route 7 had no idea a pursuit was coming because he either doesn't have a scanner, or if he had a Loudoun County portable didn't have it on, or if he had it on it doesn't work anymore because he has an old one and not the new APX version and the old ones don't pick up the new Loudoun system.

While "interoperability" is a neat buzzword and can get you all sorts of federal government dollars it doesn't really exsist when agencies use the money to buy unmonitorable radio sstems that not only shut out scanner listeners but also people like deputies, officers, troopers and communications centers who used to have the ability to monitor agencies around them before we went to interoperable unmonitorable radio systems.

Ok I feel better now!
I have a BRILLIANT idea!!! Wasn't there a type of radio that used AM and was in the 26MHz range? I think it was called a CB or something like that. I know that's beneath some of these agencies to install this old fashioned technology along with their multi-thousand dollar radios and MDTs, but that would have worked perfectly PLUS people would be able to listen in. I even think there was a common inter-agency freq called SIRS on 39.54MHz that would have worked too. Its almost like the more advanced you get the more you cut yourself off from everyone else.






Loudoun County, VA: A Gainesville, Virginia man has been charged after leading Sheriff’s Deputies on a multi-jurisdictional high speed chase.

Michael J. Star, 51, allegedly fled from authorities in Clarke County, Virginia. Around 3:20 p.m. December 10th Loudoun Sheriff’s Deputies were advised that a vehicle fled from law enforcement after a traffic stop in Clarke County and was entering Loudoun County on eastbound Route 7. The subject struck one other vehicle while fleeing from authorities. There were no serious injuries reported.

The vehicle traveled at a high rate of speed and its tires were damaged by two stop-sticks placed in the vehicle’s path during the pursuit. The vehicle continued to drive on at least three flat tires before losing control shortly after 3:30 p.m. on Route 7 near the Dulles Greenway interchange.

The suspect was taken into custody and is charged in Louduon County with speeding to elude and felony hit and run. Star is also facing charges in Clarke County with speed to elude and possession of stolen license plates. Star currently remains held without bond at the Loudoun County Adult Detention Center.

Sent to Media Only, Serious Crimes - Sheriff (E-mail accounts) through Alert Loudoun
... powered by the Roam Secure Alert Network
 

mike_s104

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Don't you think that the people in Clarke and Loudoun that paid for these nice shiny new radios and radio system should know how bad the decisions of others were that caused issues like this? If there were true interop, the Trooper would have know they were coming and could have had the spike strips ready maybe 10 miles before the guy was stopped. I think if this happened say around Round Hill, it would be A LOT safer than Leesburg. Isn't the point of a police chase to stop it as quickly as possible with the least injury and damage as possible and still get the guy? What if the guy got into say Fairfax in heavy traffic and killed someone that was just trying to get home? I think if that would have happened, these questions would be asked more than just here.
 

AES-256

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Clarke, Loudoun and VSP all have SIRS, if they did not use it, shame on them. It only takes 3 clicks of the mouse and less than 5 seconds to console patch talkgroups on a Motorola Centracom Gold Elite console.

Motorola does not make a 20+ year system anymore, all of us who have the 3.X systems are being forced to buy new due to the old 3.X systems being no longer supported and unavailability of parts.

As for Encryption, the more people post operations as they happen live, LE will deploy encryption so you don't hear and compromise operations. A few are ruining it for everyone, and I'm not pointing the finger at anyone on this thread. I don't like it anymore than any of you all and enjoy listening to what's going on where I live, but working on the operations side, I have to make sure everyone goes home at the end of shift.

This is the main reason why Clarke, Fredericksburg, Henry, York and many others are looking at how we use and should deploy encryption in our fleets. I always believe that main channels are kept in the clear for interoperability, but everything else should go secure.
 
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leonzo

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But unfortunately more agencies are encrypting their dispatch channels. Clarke encrypts everything! As for SIRS yep all three mentioned agencies have it. Now for the reality check. I have never heard Clarke County Sheriff Office on SIRS at all and I monitor SIRS everyday. To my knowledge Clarke deputies do not have SIRS in their cruisers. Loudoun County Sheriff communication center uses or I should say attempts to use SIRS to talk with troopers assigned to Loudoun County. Using a personally monitored percentage rate I would say troopers answer 1 out of every 4 times Loudoun calls them or 1/4 of the time. The other 3/4ths they never answer. Loudoun deputies do not have SIRS in their cars. Va. State cars currently have SIRS but many troopers don't use it, and I guess it's hard getting parts for them so SIRS AT LEAST IN THE LOUDOUN, CLARKE AND REST OF THE NORTHERN VA AREA IS NOT BEING USED at all!

Fairfax County PD did do a permanent patch of SIRS to one of their talkgroups but again no one uses or monitors it! My point being-when possible all law enforcement agencies should leave their dispatch channels unencrypted! Between digital cellphones, Blackberry's, Nextel direct connect feature, mobile data terminals and encrypted channels there are enough ways to "make sure people go home at night".

from-a guy who has been going home at night since 1973 with a badge!
 

mike_s104

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Clarke, Loudoun and VSP all have SIRS, if they did not use it, shame on them. It only takes 3 clicks of the mouse and less than 5 seconds to console patch talkgroups on a Motorola Centracom Gold Elite console.

Motorola does not make a 20+ year system anymore, all of us who have the 3.X systems are being forced to buy new due to the old 3.X systems being no longer supported and unavailability of parts.

As for Encryption, the more people post operations as they happen live, LE will deploy encryption so you don't hear and compromise operations. A few are ruining it for everyone, and I'm not pointing the finger at anyone on this thread. I don't like it anymore than any of you all and enjoy listening to what's going on where I live, but working on the operations side, I have to make sure everyone goes home at the end of shift.

This is the main reason why Clarke, Fredericksburg, Henry, York and many others are looking at how we use and should deploy encryption in our fleets. I always believe that main channels are kept in the clear for interoperability, but everything else should go secure.
As far as posting things live that tend to push agencies to encrypt, that takes a little discretion on the person posting it. I think things like EMS and such there are no issues. Things like surveillance, YES, do not post what you're hearing. I hear stuff all the time like FBI, DEA or BATF in the clear but don't plaster it everywhere. I am not going to jeopardize the lives, safety and operation because I can't keep my mouth shut. Maybe after the fact and it is in the news, I may add to it what I heard.

I have a friend that knows the Sheriff of Clarke Co. He said it's just his personality that it would be "him" to want to encrypt everything. I think the salesman probably saw that to and pushed him in that direction.

Loudoun was the same in a way. They saw the new bells and whistles and shiny new toys and "had to have it". I don't think Loudoun indented to make it so people would not be able to monitor it, it just happened that way.

In both cases, there (in my opinion and not being an expert in an manner about this) they didn't plan outside their own agency. I do work for a VA county government and this happens ALL THE TIME. No one talks to anyone else until something it broken and puts someone in a bad spot. Poor planning is like a cancer in the government.


But unfortunately more agencies are encrypting their dispatch channels. Clarke encrypts everything! As for SIRS yep all three mentioned agencies have it. Now for the reality check. I have never heard Clarke County Sheriff Office on SIRS at all and I monitor SIRS everyday. To my knowledge Clarke deputies do not have SIRS in their cruisers. Loudoun County Sheriff communication center uses or I should say attempts to use SIRS to talk with troopers assigned to Loudoun County. Using a personally monitored percentage rate I would say troopers answer 1 out of every 4 times Loudoun calls them or 1/4 of the time. The other 3/4ths they never answer. Loudoun deputies do not have SIRS in their cars. Va. State cars currently have SIRS but many troopers don't use it, and I guess it's hard getting parts for them so SIRS AT LEAST IN THE LOUDOUN, CLARKE AND REST OF THE NORTHERN VA AREA IS NOT BEING USED at all!

Fairfax County PD did do a permanent patch of SIRS to one of their talkgroups but again no one uses or monitors it! My point being-when possible all law enforcement agencies should leave their dispatch channels unencrypted! Between digital cellphones, Blackberry's, Nextel direct connect feature, mobile data terminals and encrypted channels there are enough ways to "make sure people go home at night".

from-a guy who has been going home at night since 1973 with a badge!
I think you just about cleared that up pretty well. :)
 

dwlyons

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I can tell you from first hand experience, Clarke Co LE encrypts everything so they can keep the County politicians out of their business. The County exec's and administrator make me question just what they are doing.

If the state would ever take the time to investigate that county, there would be some open political offices.

Clarke Co politics makes Chicago and southern WV politicians smile with pride.
 

AES-256

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Everyone has a lot of questions, so I'll try to answer even though I don't work for Loudoun.

The whole problem with this pursuit is training; either a vehicle that is not involved in the pursuit stops and radios ahead to another county/VSP what is going on or the dispatcher does this. The dispatcher dropped the ball, by not creating the patch, all they had to do was create the patch, then transmit "Clarke to Loudoun, I have a Pursuit, it is patched to SIRS". Loudoun does the same and the dispatchers out and the troops get where they need to go.

Carke does have SIRS and uses it every day to talk with Warren County to tone out FS 06 when they have calls going in Warren or Clarke. I have heard the call for the occasional state unit to work MVA's, but only while I'm at home. The problem with Clarke's SIRS is that it has a very limited footprint, that&#8217;s probably why you never hear them.

At Fairfax, the old GE Master continually blew its tube finals; finally it was taken off of the air in 1999. It took the Beltway Sniper to get a temporary radio back on the air, a Kenwood TK-6110 from the Sheriff's Office patched through an ACU-1000. That's how the old CIB 1 and CIB 2 ended up being used for the SIRS and PMARS talkgroups so personnel could scan them on our 800 radios. This patch stayed on the air for years until 3 years ago; we installed a Motorola CDM-1250 on tone remote.

Arlington, Alexandria, Fairfax and Prince William all have SIRS at their Dispatch Centers and I don't have an answer as to why nobody uses it. You will hear me test connectivity Low Band to 800 and 800 to Low Band every Tuesday morning at 0800 for my county and somebody has had to have heard me, I'm on it all of the time. At Fairfax, it is monitored at two different consoles (PSTOC & Sheriff's Office). The majority of VSP vehicles have had the new equipment installed and are using Motorola CDM 750's, I don't think that any more Aerotron's are GE Master 2's are out there. I do hear the calls on a daily basis "Loudoun to the State Unit working Loudoun for a motor vehicle accident" and it goes unanswered.

As for the DOJ agencies in the clear, that will all end as IWIN goes live. The thread that I refer to defiantly put several Federal Agents lives in jeopardy. An hour after it was posted and the play by play was being placed on the thread as it was happening, the bad guy stops the car, pulls a rifle and starts shooting at the aircraft. Thankfully the aircraft was too high to be hit and this was in a rural area with the ground units two miles back, this the main reason why we are pushing for more encryption. And yes I did go plug the frequency in when I saw the post, I felt bad for the agents; all they had to do was move a switch to engage their encryption. They too have seen the thread and are taking steps to secure their operations.

I don't know anyone over in Clarke, so I can't comment on that. But we have tried to work with them and they don't want to work with anyone on the EMS/FD or LE side. So they become stuck on the island by themselves.

It's not question that Loudoun had to have all the bells and whistles, the 3.X system is not being supported anymore. What are you going to do with an XTS3000, Astro Spectra or zone controller when you can't buy parts anymore? Do you buy an XTL/XTS 5000 that will not be supported in 5 more years or do you buy an APX that will be supported for the next 12 years? Loudoun and everyone else have to pull the trigger and buy new systems/subscriber equipment. That's the reality we all live in. The advantage for a TDMA system is that you get double the available channels while the system is in TDMA, if you could buy a system for the same price as an FDMA system and get the advantage of more channels that would reduce the amount of busies to nothing, what would you buy given the option?

I can say that all of the system managers do talk and advise each other of what is in the pipeline and we do work together to maintain the Level 6 interoperability that we enjoy. I have everything from Montgomery, Prince Georges and Charles Counties Md. to Rappahannock County Va. programmed in all of my personnel&#8217;s radios.

All of this interoperability in MWCOG started on January 13, 1982 with a snow blizzard, Air Florida Flight 90 crash on the Potomac and a rapid rail transit accident on WMATA 30 minutes after the plane crash. All of us in public safety have made great strides in our capabilities since that time when everyone was on an Island by themselves. To go back 30 years and operate like we did is unthinkable in today&#8217;s climate. I can guarantee, that all agencies in MWCOG will remain interoperable each other.
 
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leonzo

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While I understand the general nature of your post it does miss one point. That being as more dispatch channels are encrypted the less monitoring and information sharing and ability to assist outside of a communication center occurs. Yes if a commercial plane crashed and multiple public safety agencies responded to the scene at some point in time I am sure we would all be assigned one of the many mutual aid channels available and maybe after a few days we might even have all the law enforcement, fire suppression and ems people on the same mutual aid talkgroups. That is great for those occassions or on inaugration day when hundreds of suburban law enforcement goes and helps DC police with crowd control. What I some others are referring to is the loss of the ability for an on duty law enmforcement person listening to a scanner to hear a pursuit coming, or a nearby trooper or member of another agency ask for a unit to roll by. Back in the days before encrypted everything we could hear that and be there before the phonecall was made. Off duty personnel hearing a name over the air could call in with additional information, wives or husbands could listen to their spouses., Neighborhood watch people could hear activity in their neighborhood and call in updates or information, and yes even the media could have a heads up on what the taxpayer supported law enforcement personnel in a given community was doing in a democratic and free society. Well call me old fashioned or maybe just plain old but all of that stuff, that's gone out the window now in the name of security and everyone has to go home safely! Hey I am all for going home safely but I am not for the rush to encrypt everything because otherwise law enforecement can't do their job. I have been doing the job with many others for years using unencrypted open format over the air radio transmissions. Our jails still have bad guys in them and all of the agencies that don't encrypt everything still manage to make arrests. Again I am not arguing that there is not a need for encryption for "sensitive law enforcement operations". However, responding to an alarm, looking for a lost kid and responding to routine calls for law enforcement services are not, never have been and in my opinion never will be sensitive law enforcement communications!
 

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I'm with you leonzo. There are cases where encryption is necessary. But as a rule, the average dumb bad guy does not have the reasoning skills to figure out how to monitor the local leo.

I myself have passed on information to the EOC based on something heard on the scanner. I also had reported a manhole cover with water gushing out, the officer couldn't find it as I heard on the scanner and I was able to re-direct them over the phone. So while it is not all Homeland security, it is useful to the local guys who are trying to maintain civilization.

As far as SIRS is concerned, it does no good if the patch can't work because the multi-million dollar TRS has crashed. Heaven help Loudoun if there is ever a REAL disaster.
 
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bobmintern

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Interoperability is a great word, but sadly even members of localaties don't know how to use it. Sure the system is able to do it, but from personal experience it doesn't work well. Portable and Mobile radios are programmed with different talkgroups in different banks so what might be police and fire interop channel for the fire department on C-9 may be E-13 for the police. I can tell you for a fact that most users of the system will be hard pressed to leave bank A on their radios because they don't know, or care, what else is on their radio.

I think it would also be a smart idea that if the information you are about to transmit over the air is so sensitive you are even thinking encryption may be needed, maybe a different medium of communication should be used...
 
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