LPNF Forest Net Repeater Input

[KK6ZTE]

Forest net was 170.550 before switching over to 170.4625. Service ADMIN net is 171.550.

Before the forest switch, the two nets were exactly 1.0000 MHz apart.

Fixed

 

[iscanvnc2]

I had LPF forest net 170.4625 on all afternoon here in east Ventura. Nothing until shortly before 5 pm when the WX broadcast came on. With 2nd scanner I verified (again) the same on 164.825 but didn't get the PL (damn it).

 

[ko6jw_2]

I had LPF forest net 170.4625 on all afternoon here in east Ventura. Nothing until shortly before 5 pm when the WX broadcast came on. With 2nd scanner I verified (again) the same on 164.825 but didn't get the PL (damn it).

Most routine traffic is on Admin Net. There is more than one PL. The input frequency uses the PL of the repeater they want to access. It will change depending on the district they are addressing. An earlier post in this thread gave the PL's for all the sites in the forest. Listening to the input is more or less useless. You will only hear the dispatcher most of the time.

 

[Paysonscanner]

Greetings,
is there known downlink and uplink in the 400 MHz list available?

There are previous posts where people are sharing what they have heard on 400 MHz as far as links. People in the Santa Barbara, Santa Margarita, Solvang areas that can pick up a vertically polarized (somewhat narrow) signal need to put their scanners on search. Another scanner on the output frequencies would be helpful as well. For the links that seem to have been confirmed read the entire thread.

 

[ScannerDude244]

disregard my post

 

[zerg901]

1998 radio channels for Los Padres Natl Forest - see attachment

right side says - Use With LNF Ch '2' or '2 and 8'

------------------

for some 2012 and 2015 Los Padres Natl Forest radio info please see - Los Padres National Forest - California Public Safety

----------------

This info might provide some historical context for this thread - maybe not

 

[zerg901]

Someone needs to confirm a service net freq for the Los Padres National Forest, because as things stand now, the RRDB shows a UHF link for the Service Net, but it does NOT show a Service Net freq.

 

[KK6ZTE]

Someone needs to confirm a service net freq for the Los Padres National Forest, because as things stand now, the RRDB shows a UHF link for the Service Net, but it does NOT show a Service Net freq.

Have you read the thread?

 

[Paysonscanner]

Have you read the thread?

There has been discussion of hearing the service net, but I guess no one has made a DB submission. I have it listed in a 2020 official document, but I can't submit that until there is over the air confirmation.

EDIT: I read through the entire thread again and people discussed what the Service Net frequency paid is, but, unless I missed it, no one confirmed hearing it. That is why it isn't in the database.

 

[ko6jw_2]

There is no service net - not yet at least. The link labeled service net is wrong. It should be admin. net. I submitted those link frequencies to the database years ago when they changed frequencies. The guy who installed them is a friend and fellow ham. Blame me or not. I live within sight of Santa Ynez Peak. There are no other 400MHz links up there. I have done searches for days on end and never heard any other links. Yes, there are multiple admin net VHF inputs, but the traffic is the same on both inputs. Why? We've already beaten that to death. They have their reasons. I am in the process of re-permitting a repeater in the forest. Sooner or later I will be talking to the radio techs. I will get the answers.

There are no inputs in the 400MHz range for the links. They are cross band. They repeat forest net and admin net. All the equipment on SYP are remote bases. The are no repeaters per se except for the 400MHZ links.

Yes, I have read the entire thread. Yes. I really know a lot about public safety radio.

There is no service net.

 

[zerg901]

First question - is Santa Ynex Peak 'line of site' to all of the Los Padres National Forest repeater sites?

--------------------------

Moving on

My terminology

A "remote base" sits on a mtn top, and talks to mobiles in the vicinity. A "remote control station" would sit on a mtn top and key up scattered repeaters.

-----

I think the official abbreviations are -

FCC - FB - remote base - FX 1 control station - FX2 remote control station - (actually - the FCC seems to be - FX1 is a transmitter connected to a human being who activates some other radio - FX2 is a humanless radio that retransmit a message to a fixed location - so we might be very much talking apples and oranges here)

old federal (?NIRAC?) - FB - FBR - FX - FXR - something like that

-----

In the Los Padres National Forest - per Post 70 - the set up is

- Dispatch Center >> 406.60 (just using random numbers here) - >> Santa Ynex Peak >>> 164.000 >>> some repeater

the return trip would be -

mobile unit - >>> 165.555 >>> some repeater >>> Santa Ynex Peak >>> 406.60 >>> Dispatch Center

-------

In this scenario I would call the station on Santa Ynex Peak a "remote control station". I am not sure if the FCC would call that station a FX0, FX1, or FX2.

-------------------

Just thought of something - if the UHF link from the Dispatch Office to Santa Ynex Peak was a 2 freq link - and the dispatcher could receive and transmit via this link a the same time ("duplex" ops) - and if the remote control station at Santa Ynex Peak transmitted on a special freq to access the repeaters scattered around LPF/LPNF - then the dispatcher could always talk over any mobiles who are trying to use a repeater.

--------------------------------

Just to muddle this a little further - does LPNF still have their "direct" capability? Can mobiles switch to Tone 8, and talk simplex/direct to the dispatcher (without using a FB2)?

In that case the scenario would be - Dispatch Office >> link >> Santa Ynex Peak >>> 169.00 >> field units. The return trip would be - field unit >>> 169.00 >>> Santa Ynez Peak >>> link >>> Dispatch Office

In this case, I would call the radio on Santa Ynex Peak a "remote base".

Do we know if the dispatch office has microwave links to all of the repeater sites? Or telephone lines or internet or low band or satellite or someting?

 

[ko6jw_2]

First question - is Santa Ynex Peak 'line of site' to all of the Los Padres National Forest repeater sites?

--------------------------

Moving on

My terminology

A "remote base" sits on a mtn top, and talks to mobiles in the vicinity. A "remote control station" would sit on a mtn top and key up scattered repeaters.

-----

I think the official abbreviations are -

FCC - FB - remote base - FX 1 control station - FX2 remote control station - (actually - the FCC seems to be - FX1 is a transmitter connected to a human being who activates some other radio - FX2 is a humanless radio that retransmit a message to a fixed location - so we might be very much talking apples and oranges here)

old federal (?NIRAC?) - FB - FBR - FX - FXR - something like that

-----

In the Los Padres National Forest - per Post 70 - the set up is

- Dispatch Center >> 406.60 (just using random numbers here) - >> Santa Ynex Peak >>> 164.000 >>> some repeater

the return trip would be -

mobile unit - >>> 165.555 >>> some repeater >>> Santa Ynex Peak >>> 406.60 >>> Dispatch Center

-------

In this scenario I would call the station on Santa Ynex Peak a "remote control station". I am not sure if the FCC would call that station a FX0, FX1, or FX2.

-------------------

Just thought of something - if the UHF link from the Dispatch Office to Santa Ynex Peak was a 2 freq link - and the dispatcher could receive and transmit via this link a the same time ("duplex" ops) - and if the remote control station at Santa Ynex Peak transmitted on a special freq to access the repeaters scattered around LPF/LPNF - then the dispatcher could always talk over any mobiles who are trying to use a repeater.

--------------------------------

Just to muddle this a little further - does LPNF still have their "direct" capability? Can mobiles switch to Tone 8, and talk simplex/direct to the dispatcher (without using a FB2)?

In that case the scenario would be - Dispatch Office >> link >> Santa Ynex Peak >>> 169.00 >> field units. The return trip would be - field unit >>> 169.00 >>> Santa Ynez Peak >>> link >>> Dispatch Office

In this case, I would call the radio on Santa Ynex Peak a "remote base".

Do we know if the dispatch office has microwave links to all of the repeater sites? Or telephone lines or internet or low band or satellite or someting?

To answer your first question - yes they do have line of sight (mostly).

Don't get hung up on terminology. Santa Ynez is both a remote base and a control station. Using the appropriate tone on 170.4625MHz mobiles can talk to dispatch as a remote base. This is no repeater. The input frequencies are transmitted from SYP with the appropriate tone to bring up repeaters in the LPNF.

You won't find many systems like this anywhere. Attempts to make sense of it using FCC terms are not going to help.

The link frequencies repeat the output of other repeaters. The do not repeat the inputs. Since mobiles cannot hear transmissions from the link they can talk over each other and the link will have heterodynes.

What you need to understand is that the link system is a "dancing bear." It's not that the bear dances well, but that he dances at all.

 

[Paysonscanner]

To answer your first question - yes they do have line of sight (mostly).

Don't get hung up on terminology. Santa Ynez is both a remote base and a control station. Using the appropriate tone on 170.4625MHz mobiles can talk to dispatch as a remote base. This is no repeater. The input frequencies are transmitted from SYP with the appropriate tone to bring up repeaters in the LPNF.

You won't find many systems like this anywhere. Attempts to make sense of it using FCC terms are not going to help.

The link frequencies repeat the output of other repeaters. The do not repeat the inputs. Since mobiles cannot hear transmissions from the link they can talk over each other and the link will have heterodynes.

What you need to understand is that the link system is a "dancing bear." It's not that the bear dances well, but that he dances at all.

Interesting stuff you post here, Thank you! In the past the systems late Hubby and I listened to in the Sierra foothills that used 400 MHz links had the down link on 415 MHz. The up link was carried on the down link simultaneously. Once our scanners locked on the down link, we heard both sides of all mobile/dispatch comms. After narrow-banding and 406-420 MHz reallocation occurred this was no longer the case. In some cases we could not pick up the up link, only the down link.

To answer zerg's questions in maybe a different way, the LPF's official listings show info about Santa Ynez, stating it is not a repeater, but a remote base. It advises that mobile/handheld coverage for the peak is limited to SOME portions of the Santa Barbara Ranger District. It also states that only dispatch and the Forest Supervisor's Office have access to the remote base. It is stated that Tone 8 is required and that the direct channel of the forest and admin nets are to be used. Maybe not in these words, but something similar. I am only recalling from memory. I don't have the notebooks in front of me.

For the second or more time, Santa Ynez can operate all the repeaters on the forest. Hubby and I met with a radio tech back in the early 90's who told us that. It was very surprising. We had assumed that there was an additional remote base on the Monterey district that was somehow linked to Santa Ynez, by 400 MHz or microwave, or via standard phone lines into dispatch. We had some interesting paths for FM Broadcast radio and TV that we played around with a standard TV/FM radio beam we put on a rotor. Those paths worked for VHF LMR too. We had both knife edged paths and large rock faced slope reflectors at work. Sometimes when those slopes were covered with snow we received signals, but when they finally melted we had little or no signal. Wherever we would go we would take some time to find these gems. Apparently, the LPF has a real gem.

 

[Paysonscanner]

1998 radio channels for Los Padres Natl Forest - see attachment

right side says - Use With LNF Ch '2' or '2 and 8'

------------------

for some 2012 and 2015 Los Padres Natl Forest radio info please see - Los Padres National Forest - California Public Safety

----------------

This info might provide some historical context for this thread - maybe not

The picture of the R5 Smokejumpers Frequency Guide is dated in the late 1990's, either 1997 or 1999. It is not applicable today. I can't provide a picture of the LPF page in the 2020 version, although it's in a notebook on the other side of the house.

 

[ko6jw_2]

A bit of LPNF radio trivia. When I bought my first scanner (Regency TMR8H-LH) the Forest Net was on 36.98MHz wide band. You had to open the squelch to listen. In the evening you could listen to the lookouts on various peaks talking amongst themselves.

Early synthesized scanners did not cover the 406-420 band. You could listen to the links as an image in the 437MHz range. Not easy to hear. Later I had a RS scanner that covered down to 410MHz. Fortunately the links were in the 415MHz range then. Even with a roof top antenna I had difficulty hearing them. I lived in Montecito at the time. At some point I got the idea that the links were horizontally polarized. I bought a RS TV corner reflector and made a coaxial balun and fed it with RG-6. I went from no signal to full quieting.

The ability to hit all of the mountain top repeaters from Santa Ynez is hard to believe, but true. It is a fantastic site. My avatar shows just two of the towers on SYP. All commercial, cell phone and a couple of ham repeaters on those.

By the way the main repeater for the Santa Barbara Ranger District is on La Cumbre Peak. A new repeater on Santa Cruz Island does a very good job getting back into the canyons along the coast the are not covered well by La Cumbre.

As an aside, hams use frequencies in the 420-440MHz range for linking too.

 

[vlarian]

On the trivia note I have some about the Sierra NF. if not too off topic, from Sierra Dispatch (at the Fresno Air Attack Base) their transceiver is at the base and they can reach all the repeaters on the forest. kinda neat!

Dispatch does have a few remote bases (5 sites some via microwave and one via T1) but they never use them, frankly most dispatchers that work there have no idea how to use them or even that they exist.

 

[zerg901]

One might say that the LPF radio site on Santa Ynex Peak is - a remote base; a remote control station; and a cross band repeater. But it is not an "in band repeater".

On a different note

The RRDB shows just PL 103.5 on the UHF links. Apparently no other PLs are ever heard.

 

[ko6jw_2]

One might say that the LPF radio site on Santa Ynex Peak is - a remote base; a remote control station; and a cross band repeater. But it is not an "in band repeater".

On a different note

The RRDB shows just PL 103.5 on the UHF links. Apparently no other PLs are ever heard.

All repeaters in the LPNF have 103.5 on the output. The inputs determine what repeater you will hit. Units in the field pretty much know what PL to use. Occasionally someone will say, "You're not hitting the XYZ repeater on tone X, try ABC repeater on tone Y." There is a learning curve. At a fire a few months ago units were using La Cumbre and it was not working. They finally switched to Santa Cruz Island and things worked much better.

One other point. You will hear people say, "Take your traffic to Admin. Net." I have never heard any reference to taking traffic to Service Net.

 

[Paysonscanner]

All repeaters in the LPNF have 103.5 on the output. The inputs determine what repeater you will hit. Units in the field pretty much know what PL to use. Occasionally someone will say, "You're not hitting the XYZ repeater on tone X, try ABC repeater on tone Y." There is a learning curve. At a fire a few months ago units were using La Cumbre and it was not working. They finally switched to Santa Cruz Island and things worked much better.

One other point. You will hear people say, "Take your traffic to Admin. Net." I have never heard any reference to taking traffic to Service Net.

If every repeater transmits 103.5 on the output then how does the system, in particular the dispatcher's console, distinguish which repeater is being used for someone calling them. On the national forests we used to listen to in the Sierra Nevada this is whey there was a repeater output tone that was unique to each repeater. It was either the same as the input, or like in the Sierra NF case tones down in the 67-85 hz range were used to help the console, actually computer screen, light up symbol on the screen showing the repeater.

 

[iscanvnc2]

This is from the view point of a listener. I'm sure someone with intimate knowledge will provide more technical detail.

The initiating unit will announce what tone they are calling on as in "Los Padres, engine 53, tone 2".

By the way. the other 3 southern CA NFs (Angeles, San Bernardino, Cleveland) use 103.5 the same as Los Padres.