LVMPD VHF digital audio

[crazynova]

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If you watch Vegas Strip you'll see they use their cell phones to run people rather than the radio

That's just a matter of preference. They did that before the new system, too. It's easier to call records than wait in line on channel 1. That way they can keep their radios on the area command channel to know what's going on.

 

[lrh270]

Some plainclothes units like tourist safety use nextel direct connect phones grouped just on their squad/bureau.

 

[bikinjohn]

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Well I have talked with an officer who said he had to call dispatch on his cell because the radio was unreadable. And yeah i've heard info is pretty busy. You'd think they'd have at least 2 info channels, one for the north and one for the south or something like that. Although if their computers used a worthwile wireless signal they could run stuff themselves when safe to do so which would also reduce the info channel back log.

 

[SCPD]

Regarding hearing all area commands, to me it sounds like metro has VHF and OS patched, which is creating the wobble sound and poor radio quality. In my opinion the FCC made a stupid decision to require public safety to go to the 700-800 band. I also think officers' don't wait long enough keying the mic before transmitting, and when someone else keys up at the same time it makes it even worse. On top of that I don't think Metrocom is set up to handle this radio system in terms of the wiring. I also think the repeaters play a huge roll in the functionality. When a unit transmits if I'm correct it has to go through sometype of relay or conversion process in the dispatch center in order for the dispatchers to hear the units calling them.

 

[PJH]

In my opinion the FCC made a stupid decision to require public safety to go to the 700-800 band.

Can you cite please? There is no such regulation or requirement.

I also think officers' don't wait long enough keying the mic before transmitting

Perhaps you want to teach radio 101 at the academy? This has been an issue since radio has begun. FWIW, many radios have pretime delay that helps with this. Such delays can be used with PTT ID or channel grant setups. The average radio user can care less.

and when someone else keys up at the same time it makes it even worse.

You think? If its a trunked system, most will give you a deinal tone until the channel/talkgroup is clear. If its conventional, it happens (though some radios can be setup to not allow it, but generally isn't safe to do).

On top of that I don't think Metrocom is set up to handle this radio system in terms of the wiring.

Have you seen the backend equipment? Electrical wiring, fiber optics, RF cabeling, interconnects, extention cords? Pretty broad statement here.

I also think the repeaters play a huge roll in the functionality. When a unit transmits if I'm correct it has to go through sometype of relay or conversion process in the dispatch center in order for the dispatchers to hear the units calling them.

Please educate yourself from a proper teacher before making some really board statements. If you are new to the hobby, please refrain from making statements as you have in the post. Ask questions, don't make statements. Learn. I hate to knock you, but it kinda irks us in the field when broad unquailified statements are written. This is the type of information that can get picked up and repeated where there is little/no/misinformation then becomes fact.

Please ask questions!

 

[crazynova]

Can you cite please? There is no such regulation or requirement.



Perhaps you want to teach radio 101 at the academy? This has been an issue since radio has begun. FWIW, many radios have pretime delay that helps with this. Such delays can be used with PTT ID or channel grant setups. The average radio user can care less.



You think? If its a trunked system, most will give you a deinal tone until the channel/talkgroup is clear. If its conventional, it happens (though some radios can be setup to not allow it, but generally isn't safe to do).



Have you seen the backend equipment? Electrical wiring, fiber optics, RF cabeling, interconnects, extention cords? Pretty broad statement here.



Please educate yourself from a proper teacher before making some really board statements. If you are new to the hobby, please refrain from making statements as you have in the post. Ask questions, don't make statements. Learn. I hate to knock you, but it kinda irks us in the field when broad unquailified statements are written. This is the type of information that can get picked up and repeated where there is little/no/misinformation then becomes fact.

Please ask questions!

There was an issue at first with officers not waiting long enough to talk into the new radios. It takes a second to get the acceptance tone when you key the mic and then you have to pause before speaking. If the channel is busy you'll get a 3 beep denial tone. One of the issues officers don't like is that the MDTs share the channel to transmit data. If an MDT is sending data (only takes about a second or less) and you key the mic, you'll get a denial tone. That, along with more dead spots than the VHF system, and garbled audio, are the biggest complaints. The garbled audio and dead spots have gotten A LOT better since the system were first implemented and officers have started getting used to the radio operations, so complaints are far fewer than they used to be. In the end, Metro has many millions invested and it's too late to back out now, so let's hope they can get it fixed and keep broadcasting the unencrypted patch for a while.

 

[Gezelle007]

One of the issues officers don't like is that the MDTs share the channel to transmit data. If an MDT is sending data (only takes about a second or less) and you key the mic, you'll get a denial tone...

What? That seems pretty unsafe. Even if it is a second or less.. thats a weird design imo..

 

[SCPD]

My follow up will not be as condescending.

Can you cite please? There is no such regulation or requirement.

No - I can not cite as I have only heard this from radio techs and motorola. My error for making this statement.

Perhaps you want to teach radio 101 at the academy? This has been an issue since radio has begun. FWIW, many radios have pretime delay that helps with this. Such delays can be used with PTT ID or channel grant setups. The average radio user can care less.

Actually, I have taught radio 101 at the academy and I assume you have as well? I know this has been an issue since inception. I do not agree with you that the average radio user cares less about a delay or being 'bonked." It boils down to officer safety. I'm not sure if you are a patrol officer, but consider their end of the radio and how frustrating it can be to get the air.



You think? If its a trunked system, most will give you a deinal tone until the channel/talkgroup is clear. If its conventional, it happens (though some radios can be setup to not allow it, but generally isn't safe to do).

I agree with you here. What I simply stated is my opinion on the matter.



Have you seen the backend equipment? Electrical wiring, fiber optics, RF cabeling, interconnects, extention cords? Pretty broad statement here.

Yes, I have. And, no it's not really a broad statement. Metrocom has already outgrown the facility; they just did an add on to the building and will probably need to do another one for additional space for call takers.



Please educate yourself from a proper teacher before making some really board statements. If you are new to the hobby, please refrain from making statements as you have in the post. Ask questions, don't make statements. Learn. I hate to knock you, but it kinda irks us in the field when broad unquailified statements are written. This is the type of information that can get picked up and repeated where there is little/no/misinformation then becomes fact.

Please ask questions!

When you say, "but it kinda irks us in the field" are you referring that you are a patrol officer or radio tech with Metro? The statements I made in the post are fine. I have no problem with you critiquing them and providing a positive feed back. All your comments were apparently written during the heat of the moment when you read the posting. Please try be considerate of those who post, even if they don't have all the information correct. Thank you.

 

[PJH]

First off I was referring to you. Based on your initial written statements it appears (and still appears) that you are/were on the outside looking in. Second part I think that points to this is that the system is opensky manufactured by MA/COM-Harris and Not Motorola so not sure why a Motorola tech would be involved etc.

And yes I have instructed at two post academies for a state trunked system as well as radio theory for police officers and dispatchers.

 

[SCPD]

Can you cite please? There is no such regulation or requirement.



Perhaps you want to teach radio 101 at the academy? This has been an issue since radio has begun. FWIW, many radios have pretime delay that helps with this. Such delays can be used with PTT ID or channel grant setups. The average radio user can care less.



You think? If its a trunked system, most will give you a deinal tone until the channel/talkgroup is clear. If its conventional, it happens (though some radios can be setup to not allow it, but generally isn't safe to do).



Have you seen the backend equipment? Electrical wiring, fiber optics, RF cabeling, interconnects, extention cords? Pretty broad statement here.



Please educate yourself from a proper teacher before making some really board statements. If you are new to the hobby, please refrain from making statements as you have in the post. Ask questions, don't make statements. Learn. I hate to knock you, but it kinda irks us in the field when broad unquailified statements are written. This is the type of information that can get picked up and repeated where there is little/no/misinformation then becomes fact.

Please ask questions!

First off I was referring to you. Based on your initial written statements it appears (and still appears) that you are/were on the outside looking in. Second part I think that points to this is that the system is opensky manufactured by MA/COM-Harris and Not Motorola so not sure why a Motorola tech would be involved etc.

And yes I have instructed at two post academies for a state trunked system as well as radio theory for police officers and dispatchers.

Yeah, obviously, you are referring to me. Who else??? And your statment, "as if I appear that I'm on the outside looking in." Who cares if I am or not, it doesn't matter, this is a forum (A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged). I am fully aware of the positive and negative issues with Opensky. You are taking all this way to personal. I am fully aware that Motorola is not the manufacturer of such a product.

 

[Dick33]

Well since I have started this thread many things have changed, good and bad for LVMPD ! There is a new sheriff in town (so to say) a new Metro Comm administration has taken over recently. My honest opinion is that there will be some resolve quicker than sooner with their Desert Sky system. I have been reserved in my posting on this and other systems here in town for reasons some of you know. I can say this Nevada forum is looked at by both of the big players in town, so do not think that these posts have fallen to waste side. Whatever the outcome public and personal safety is paramount !

 

[PJH]

To Coy

-My original statement still stands. It is still apparent to me that you really don't know whats going on, and have the basics of radio knowledge and making statements on what you think you know, is counterproductive.

Yes, this fourm is the exchange of ideas, but ones that should be based on fact and not what you think you hear over the scanner.

Wouldn't be the first time that someone here has posted what they thought they knew what was going on with a system and swore to god that it was accurate...until I posted my phone number at headquarters and invited them to call me to straighten things out.

 

[PJH]

Oh, and back to OpenSky and PTT in general...

Yes there will always be a short delay in actually transmitting. The time for channel grant, authenication and the such will be there...but usually its pretty quick. Somewhere I had some timing information and it was down to around 250ms and the such that most controllers (at least in the P25 standard) to make it all happen.

As for side tones, thats up to the agency to enable them or not. My agency does not use them and we have people who "Front clip" all the time, even with training. It sucks, its annoying but thats what the ranking admin wants (still) for tactical reasons. Even though we can adjust those alert tones, they still don't want it. Eventually it will be enabled, just not soon enough.

Your also dealing with people who have used analog conventional systems for years and never had any "advanced" features for years so they don't know anything different. Push, talk, done.

Now when your running after someone its a different situation, but our hands are tied.

As for MDT data, it should switch over pretty quick, but still, your waiting for a voice channel. The Motorola IV&D systems work the same way. OpenSky in PA used the data feature for quite a long time. OpenSky in its backend is actually a very cool system. We had this same conversation at dinner the other night post IWCE..but its a little too early for its own good. Its just trying to do too much, too soon and unfortunatly its having some really large profile failures in the large geographic rollouts.

 

[SCPD]

Radio systems have changed and people have to adjust to the changes, period! Here in Minnesota we have and are still in the process of transitioning to a statewide P25 statewide system. A couple of officers I have talked to that used to use an old analog system said after they have used the system for a while know how to use it and like it allot. Sometime you can't teach old dogs new tricks but they will have to learn!.

The users of the system are taught to wait for the PTT beeps, then talk. If they hear a low "bonk" tone, then don't talk.

 

[SCPD]

To Coy

-My original statement still stands. It is still apparent to me that you really don't know whats going on, and have the basics of radio knowledge and making statements on what you think you know, is counterproductive.

Yes, this fourm is the exchange of ideas, but ones that should be based on fact and not what you think you hear over the scanner.

Wouldn't be the first time that someone here has posted what they thought they knew what was going on with a system and swore to god that it was accurate...until I posted my phone number at headquarters and invited them to call me to straighten things out.

The postings between you and I are going no where. It's not worth my time or yours. I certainly hope you have success, and that officer safety is not compromised. Best of luck!

 

[PJH]

You are correct. I had a Sgt at another dept that was dead set against PTT sidetones, as back when the Sabers where around, you could not adjust the alert tone settings so the sidetone was loud no matter what. When the ASTRO equipment was placed in service, they still kept the sidetone off (this was for MDC1200)..and people kept front clipping. Eventually I was able to reprogram most of the mobiles and portables to emit a soft sidetone, but he still hated it.

It all comes down to what you know, and what they want in the field, even if it isn't the greatest thing going.

Radio systems have changed and people have to adjust to the changes, period! Here in Minnesota we have and are still in the process of transitioning to a statewide P25 statewide system. A couple of officers I have talked to that used to use an old analog system said after they have used the system for a while know how to use it and like it allot. Sometime you can't teach old dogs new tricks but they will have to learn!.

The users of the system are taught to wait for the PTT beeps, then talk. If they hear a low "bonk" tone, then don't talk.

 

[bikinjohn]

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The Opensky system still does not work well and I hear it everyday. Officers getting frustrated because they have to repeat themselves 4 to 5 times with Dispatch telling them to landline. Why don't they join SNACC and expand the system? Why do the MDT's use the radio network rather than cell cards? Makes sense to have a setup where if the radios die you still have computers, and if the computers die you still have radios.

 

[PJH]

OpenSky is a TDMA system...this allows (as part of the selling point) that you can have multiple transmissions on a single channel thus expanding your capacity. OpenSky is a 4 slot system allowing 4 paths on one freq. Doing this you should be able to have a voice and data call at the same time, but I haven't been too deep into it for awhile. In fact, OpenSky is basically a large VoIP/data system.

To make it more of a laymens since, it works the same way as GSM cell phones... this is why on AT&T/T-Mobile etc you can talk and play with data features at the same time.

Why there would be a wait for a voice call while in a data call, I don't have an answer to that. My guess based on experience is that they are still working the kinks out of the system, hence the full time patching (which isn't abnormal for any new system...we did the same thing with ours... lowband to 800).

Back in 2010 MA/COM annouced OpenSky 2.0 which can be considered a software released. The new hardware is using the AMBE++ and they did a lot of backend improvements. This might be one of the newest systems out.

Like I said, its OpenSky is really cool, but they never seem to roll it out or get it working 100%

 

[jrholm]

Really cool doesn't cut it though if lives are in jeopardy.

 

[PJH]

Your right and I fault the administrations who buy this system every time when there are still so many problems with it.