Mainstream Multi-Digital-Mode Scanners. Why Not Now?

[KC1UA]

OK, I'll bite.

AOR has released the AOR AR-DV1 receiver. While it currently has significant shortcomings due to firmware and perhaps other limitations that may or may not be corrected with time, it is:

• FCC type accepted for use in the United States
• Capable of receiving P25
• Capable of receiving DMR/MotoTrbo
• Capable of receiving NXDN (currently only 4800 baud systems)
• A slew of amateur radio digital modes (who cares, but nice I guess)
• dPMR
• Oh, and analog signals from 150 KHz to 1300 MHz....all mode

Clearly there is a hue and cry for a scanner that will receive at least the top 3 modes listed. AOR is first to the table. The price of this receiver is $1200 though, probably far more than most would like to spend for a scanner.

Will a scanner manufacturer step forward now and create a scanner that is capable of properly scanning DMR and NXDN signals? Obviously P25 is "old news" at this point.

If not...why not? And yes I understand we don't disclose scanner features in advance, yada yada yada. Enough, already.

How much would the masses pay for such a scanner? I'm sure many would pay more than the roughly $500 or so for Uniden's "flagship" model or for Whistler's.

Clearly there are other viable alternatives as well, such as the much discussed Russian gem which is currently mono-band but may expand, and of course the fabulous DSD. No matter what the means though, all have their limitations in coverage and/or portability, discussed until the cows come home in various threads here and elsewhere.

This is not a knock or a jab at the major scanner manufacturers; don't take it as such. AOR has proven it is possible, and despite their "cart before the horse" approach, they deserve nothing but kudos for doing so.

Who's next?

 

[JoeyC]

and they still can't make a radio that trunks.

 

[KC1UA]

and they still can't make a radio that trunks.

AOR? Right....but you're apparently missing the point of this post if that's what you want to discuss and/or debate. :roll:

 

[Citywide173]

As I posted in another thread (sorry for the hijack), AOR has been very specific that the new radio is a receiver, not a scanner. That is directly from the President's mouth when increased scan speed was suggested to him. They do not seem to care about the scanner market, and at $1200, they probably don't see many scanner enthusiasts (scanner-only that is) clamoring to buy their product. Why they would snub an entire group of potential customers, I have no idea, but that's the way it's viewed from the top at AOR.

With that said, it also establishes a point of denial for Whistler and Uniden. They can hide behind the "that's a feature for high end receivers, we make scanners." Albeit I have not seen Whistler active here, nor am I familiar with the way of suggesting wish list items to them. Uniden does have a presence, and the aforementioned "we don't disclose future developments" is a convenient place to hide when this question is raised.

All mode single band 2 way radios are making their debut, there is no reason the scanner manufacturers can't follow suit, unless you look at the fact that every time they release a new product, with minimal features added, people just say shut up and take my money. As long as they're able to sell the current line at a profit, there is no motivation to move forward.

 

[Boatanchor]

Hardware constrained scanners and receivers are fast becoming obsolete and irrelevant (if they haven't already) in todays trunked, encrypted and multi DV 'standard' world.

There will be a market for analogue/P25 only handheld and to a lesser extent, remote mounted mobile scanners for a while longer, but anyone who is serious about monitoring multiple systems using different DV standards at home, at work or within their three letter agency, is going to end up using some form of SDR based receiving equipment.

Yesterdays $500 'flagship' / top tier models from Uniden and Whistler are todays low tier, P25 constrained models.

The future has already overtaken them..

 

[signal500]

Hardware constrained scanners and receivers are fast becoming obsolete and irrelevant (if they haven't already) in todays trunked, encrypted and multi DV 'standard' world.

There will be a market for analogue/P25 only handheld and to a lesser extent, remote mounted mobile scanners for a while longer, but anyone who is serious about monitoring multiple systems using different DV standards at home, at work or within their three letter agency, is going to end up using some form of SDR based receiving equipment.

Yesterdays $500 'flagship' / top tier models from Uniden and Whistler are todays low tier, P25 constrained models.

The future has already overtaken them..

+1 Boatanchor, I couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Citywide173]

but anyone who is serious about monitoring multiple systems using different DV standards at home, at work or within their three letter agency, is going to end up using some form of SDR based receiving equipment.

The assumption here is that the people who are doing the monitoring are radio savvy. That isn't always the case. I've got a nice, new 996P2 in my new ambulance. Of the 9 guys assigned to the truck, there are 2 of us who fully understand the radio's capabilities. All of us use the scanner to know what's going on around us though.

This is one small example. The news media is probably the largest example. Reporters and photographers are most likely not the people that would take the time to set up an SDR/Computer monitoring station. They are, however, a group that would pay big bucks to have a radio capable of receiving the multiple DV standards out of the box, and whoever gets it to market first will win. Who that will be is anyone's guess, but as long as people with an old mindset are running these companies, it's not happening anytime soon.

 

[RayAir]

I've mostly given up on scanners except for some out of County P25 monitoring.

The new "scanners" I bought this year are a laptop running DSD+ (also running on desktop) and 3 CS700 radios. One to scan DMR Conventional repeaters and the other two to scan Connect Plus and Capacity Plus systems.

I haven't bought an NXDN capable radio yet because there just isn't enough NXDN traffic around here yet except for 2 TRS systems which I heard cannot be conventionally scanned if they are trunked. Not sure if that's true but using DSD I identified a few tow truck companies and a light traffic hospital security agency on the system. Can't justify buying a NXDN radio to monitor them anyway.

Now if public safety were using NXDN, I would look into it.

No interest in dStar, dPMR, or Fusion amateur radio modes.

So the new "scanners" are not scanners at all.

 

[KC1UA]

I agree with Ed's post. There is plenty of room for both SDR and hardware technology. Didn't Uniden tout a "Joe User" or something similar to that when they introduced the 436HP and 536HP? He (or she) was the prime example of someone who is in all likelihood never going to spend the time or have the understanding to set up a SDR.

If one goes with the assumption that SDR's are the only viable technology going forward (and for some of us they are) then Uniden and Whistler should do one of two things.

1. Build an SDR.
2. Stick to Cordless Phones and radar detectors.

My point again is that AOR has done so, and YES I know it's very flawed, but it CAN be done...but, will it?

The assumption here is that the people who are doing the monitoring are radio savvy. That isn't always the case. I've got a nice, new 996P2 in my new ambulance. Of the 9 guys assigned to the truck, there are 2 of us who fully understand the radio's capabilities. All of us use the scanner to know what's going on around us though.

This is one small example. The news media is probably the largest example. Reporters and photographers are most likely not the people that would take the time to set up an SDR/Computer monitoring station. They are, however, a group that would pay big bucks to have a radio capable of receiving the multiple DV standards out of the box, and whoever gets it to market first will win. Who that will be is anyone's guess, but as long as people with an old mindset are running these companies, it's not happening anytime soon.

 

[N9JIG]

I think there are markets for both SDR and hardware scanners. There will likely always be a market for scanners as we now know them for portable and mobile use as well as for the vast majority of people who have them now: people who just want to be able to hear their local police and fire calls.

The outliers are people like many of us here on RR: more advanced hobbyists whose purpose may not actually be the content of the communications they hear but rather the technology behind it. It is people like us who want to try new things (like the DV1 and SDR devices), have radios like the R7000, R8500 and AR5000 and spend hours devoted to forums to discuss the technology.

In the years I have been in the hobby (and now the business) of scanners the line between the "Average Joe" and the hard-core users has moved along with the technology. Remember years ago when only the most advanced hobbyists had the ability to follow trunking? Or when digital was but a dream? Remember when discussions of PL Tones were a forbidden topic? These things are mainstream now.

In a few years we may well look back and say things like "I remember when scanners didn't have DMR" and we will be looking at the next new tech coming down the pike and dreaming about one day being able to monitor the new imbedded biotransceiver or whatever they are using then.

The point of my diatribe here is that these exact discussions we held years ago, just with different tech. The same discussion will be held in the future as well.

There are more questions to be asked. Hopefully we will have answers eventually:
Are Uniden and Whistler designing DMR scanners? I certainly hope so.
Will AOR, Icom, Yaesu etc. come out with trunking receivers?
Will whatever succeeds the Icom R9500 include digital modes like IDAS, NXDN or even D-Star?
Will anyone else come out with consumer-grade scanners to compete with Uniden and Whistler? (I am not talking relabeled Uniden or Whistler products, but actual independent designs)
Will there be more SDR options available to the less techy crowd?

 

[AA6IO]

The outliers are people like many of us here on RR: more advanced hobbyists whose purpose may not actually be the content of the communications they hear but rather the technology behind it. It is people like us who want to try new things (like the DV1 and SDR devices), have radios like the R7000, R8500 and AR5000 and spend hours devoted to forums to discuss the technology.

I agree that SDR is the wave of the future. I ended buying the DV1 because I do like to try new things. But I still do not believe that the DV1, nor any hardware radio, will have the ability to do what SDR radios can or will be able to do. Truth be told, I am one of the (I don't know that I can say "advanced") hobbyists that like the technology a heck of a lot more than the content.
I am involved in some local disasters communications here in the East Los Angeles County area, and monitoring the paramedics is sometimes interesting given my background, but believe me, I get no real thrill listening to public safety all day long. My interest is 80% the new technology and perhaps 20% what I am actually listening to. Do you think I'm all hyped up about the content of DMR and NXDN transmissions. No I'm not. I am fascinated by the digital technology itself. If you told me I could play with DMR and NXDN and use it to hear old Stones, Who, and Kinks stuff, I would probably enjoy the content much more.
If any of us on this new thread just cared about hearing the police, firemen, or public works officials, we could do that with any "one" of many radios. Sure, some work better on some systems, but how many radios do you need? Don't get me wrong. I admire what our public safety officers do. God Bless All of Them.
But for me, it's the technology behind it. If new digital modes come out, new SDR technology is available, but all you can hear is the "garbage men," so be it. I will probably be right there trying it out.
And don't get me wrong when I just bought the AR-DV1. I got it because it is something new, novel, fairly portable, and on the cutting edge. But it is certainly limited, as will any hardware radio/scanner be limited. Computers and SDR are the future of radio.
In my own profession of medicine, the strides that have been made with computer/software technology have been utterly amazing. The public usually hears about electronic medical records. That is the tip of the iceberg. The gains that have been made with computer/software technology in patient diagnosis, imaging, and treatment have been revolutionary. It is absolutely mind boggling the changes that have taken place since I graduated medical school in 1977.
I'm glad to be part of a group like all of you on this thread who want to push the technology in this hobby to the limits. Wish I had more software engineering background, but there is only so much time in this life.
Steve AA6IO

 

[AA6IO]

I reread my post above and realized it sounds like I don't particularly like scanning or radio per se, but rather the technology. Actually, that is incorrect. What I should have said is I enjoy new technology most of the time precisely for always pursuing new stations, talk groups, and off-beat things to listen to. I have always been a fan of CW and utility listening on SW. So when I say I don't particularly like listening to the police or fire a lot of the time, I should say, "listening to any particular channels in any one area." over a long time. I know many folks like monitoring one or two particular favorite areas.
I am always pursuing new TGs and things to listen to, and now having digital modes, just adds to the pursuit. Also, I am big on analyzing signals. Just a clarification. Thank you.
Steve AA6IO

 

[KA2ZEY]

I personally find the user experience of a dedicated hardware piece more enjoyable than a computer or being tied to using a computer. I like the portability of a scanner and I hope they will make a user upgradable, sdr version of a scanner. Heck I wouldn't even mind a tier system where you pay for the options. Or how about open source that allows users to right their own plugins but alas, I can dream.

 

[slicerwizard]

I haven't bought an NXDN capable radio yet because there just isn't enough NXDN traffic around here yet except for 2 TRS systems which I heard cannot be conventionally scanned if they are trunked. Not sure if that's true

It's definitely true. NXDN trunked and conventional systems use different sync patterns.

 

[EricCottrell]

Hello,

The scanner feature set is very slow to expand. There was MSDOS software for trunking years before scanners could do it. First only 800 MHz Motorola, then gradually Motorola on other bands, EDACS, and LTR. More recently P25 Phase 1, then P25 Phase 2. Old MSDOS software can still decode systems than are unsupported in scanners.

Part of the slowness is a numbers game. The number of unencrypted systems in the market has to reach a certain level to justify adding support for the system. Widespread usage by public safety agencies is a plus. Of course that does not help if your local public safety agencies are now using ProVoice or Open Sky. I think a DMR/NXDN scanner is still a couple of years away. More LTR systems need to be converted to DMR/NXDN, and more railroads need to use NXDN.

One of the positives is the voice codec for P25P2, DMR, and 6.25KHz NXDN are the same. The 12.5 KHz NXDN half rate codec is the same. I do not know if this is common, but the 12.5 KHz systems in my area use the half rate codec with alternating voice and idle frames.

I do wonder why there are no Tetra scanners, given the widespread worldwide usage. It may be due to the assumption that many systems use encryption, and listening to the systems are restricted in some countries. There are also no scanners that do EDACS Extended Addressing (EA), likely due to the assumption that most of the systems are all ProVoice. There could be codec issues as well.

During the Boston Marathon it was more convenient to setup and use one of my XPR portables than to setup dsd. Of course I had to do some legwork with dsd to get the system parameters of the local Capacity Plus system. A DMR scanner would be better as the XPR is limited to 16 talkgroups.

73 Eric

 

[FoeHammer]

Why would you want to spend upwards of 5 to 600 dollars for a radio that is an RX only scanner ,... you know as soon as DMR scanners come out & become popular & and all those users that moved over to DMR because they were sold on privacy see the online feeds go up or ,the youtube vids of a kid with an android phone listening to a private investigator or tow trucks & taxis monitoring the competition ,...Inside of one year of a dmr scanner coming out I bet you start to see DMR systems going encrypted ,...keep it the way it is now,.. sdr based , or dmr radio based ,.... but release a dmr scanner cheap enough for the masses ,... & get ready for another wave of encryption ,...

 

[CanesFan95]

I've mostly given up on scanners except for some out of County P25 monitoring.

The new "scanners" I bought this year are a laptop running DSD+ (also running on desktop) and 3 CS700 radios. One to scan DMR Conventional repeaters and the other two to scan Connect Plus and Capacity Plus systems.

How are you able to track talkgroups on Capacity Plus for listening? And what about RAS?