Marin Co. -- 54 million dollar radio system?
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MERA
That's interesting since Marin is a digital system. I can understand why many agencies are upgrading their analog systems because Motorola no longer sells them, but I'd like to understand this issue a little more. It seems that people simply want to replace it because it was installed WAY BACK in 1998. Oh my, that was last century!
MERA is a Motorola 4.1 SmartZone trunking system. It uses a proprietary control methodology, for which there are only two manufacturers of subscriber equipment (Motorola and EFJohnson). Only Motorola has multiband subscriber radios available.
Motorola no longer supports SmartZone 3.0, and 4.1 is at end of supported life. Replacing the SmartZone with a P25 trunking system will allow many subscriber options, including the Thales Liberty and Harris Unity mutiband portables to be used on the network.
(And, $54M sounds about right for a budgetary estimate.)
Motorola no longer supports SmartZone 3.0, and 4.1 is at end of supported life. Replacing the SmartZone with a P25 trunking system will allow many subscriber options, including the Thales Liberty and Harris Unity mutiband portables to be used on the network.
(And, $54M sounds about right for a budgetary estimate.)
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rapidcharger
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Are we talking about Marin County, ca?! As in, the Marin County with a population of only 255k people? The price tag is asinine. That would make this the most expensive radio system per capita, possibly EVER. I think what the infrastructure war profiteers are realizing is that it doesn't matter what the price tag is, they will pay it! Even if it means adding a sales tax. Or even if it means laying off first responders.
What's even more sad is they're talking about paying a consultant nearly a year's salary (in the rest of the country that is) to figure out a way to tax everyone to pay for it when what they ought to do is pay a consultant to determine a more cost effective radio system. I get that the terrain is a challenge there but the county doesn't need 100% body worn portable coverage either.
What's even more sad is they're talking about paying a consultant nearly a year's salary (in the rest of the country that is) to figure out a way to tax everyone to pay for it when what they ought to do is pay a consultant to determine a more cost effective radio system. I get that the terrain is a challenge there but the county doesn't need 100% body worn portable coverage either.
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I think the issue is that even though the MERA JPA was founded in 1998, the system wasn't really fully operational until the early to mid 2000s. It's now 2013. It took them a long time to transition all the user radios over (most of which were previously on VHF low). Not a lot of time has gone by since those users got on the system, and the system still feels pretty new. With the initial purchase price of $21.4 million, it's difficult for the taxpayers to grasp that they already need to pay for another $54 million radio system.
In hindsight maybe it wasn't that smart of them to purchase an ASTRO 4.1 system with less than a decade left of Motorola support, but what's done is done. Personally I'd like to see them prioritize the upgrades in this order:
1.) Upgrade to a P25 Core (Zone controller, CEB, etc) and upgrade the dispatch consoles to IP-based MCC7500s. Implement the "SmartX" upgrade to allow the system to continue to run as a SmartZone system, utilizing the existing site controllers, Quantar repeaters and user radios (which are the bulk of the cost of a new system).
2.) Phase in new user radios and convert sites over to P25 on a more gradual timeline. Without the threat of Motorola dropping ASTRO 4.1 hanging over their heads the user radios can be used to the end of their service lives rather than thrown away arbitrarily.
3.) Personally, I'd also like to see them stay on UHF T-band for as long as possible. I know BayRICS is ultimately a 700 MHz/800 MHz plan, and the FCC is kicking everyone off T-Band eventually... but why not make add a single mutual-aid 700 MHz site in the interim and continue running the rest of the system on T-band for the near future? That's basically what San Francisco has done with their 700 MHz system. At the moment it only exists as an interop gateway with EBRCS.
In hindsight maybe it wasn't that smart of them to purchase an ASTRO 4.1 system with less than a decade left of Motorola support, but what's done is done. Personally I'd like to see them prioritize the upgrades in this order:
1.) Upgrade to a P25 Core (Zone controller, CEB, etc) and upgrade the dispatch consoles to IP-based MCC7500s. Implement the "SmartX" upgrade to allow the system to continue to run as a SmartZone system, utilizing the existing site controllers, Quantar repeaters and user radios (which are the bulk of the cost of a new system).
2.) Phase in new user radios and convert sites over to P25 on a more gradual timeline. Without the threat of Motorola dropping ASTRO 4.1 hanging over their heads the user radios can be used to the end of their service lives rather than thrown away arbitrarily.
3.) Personally, I'd also like to see them stay on UHF T-band for as long as possible. I know BayRICS is ultimately a 700 MHz/800 MHz plan, and the FCC is kicking everyone off T-Band eventually... but why not make add a single mutual-aid 700 MHz site in the interim and continue running the rest of the system on T-band for the near future? That's basically what San Francisco has done with their 700 MHz system. At the moment it only exists as an interop gateway with EBRCS.
Since private companies want to make money they'll no doubt try and milk as much work as they can profit from so MERA gets goaded in to another band like 700. With Marin being rather affluent someone's gonna see dollar signs.
Look at the issues they had getting sites for MERA; now switch to 700 and the need for more sites...gonna be some more NIMBY activity again.
Oh totally. They're going to need a lot more sites to provide 700 MHz portable coverage with all that terrain. It's going to be a NIMBY nightmare.
MERA
And since they are already digital, I can't understand why someone feels the need to fix what is NOT broken.
Again... Motorola is stopping support for ASTRO 4.1 (Type II Smartzone systems). However you can circumvent this by upgrading the Zone Controller and network core infrastructure to P25, while retaining your SmartZone sites and radios by installing the "SmartX" modules at each site.
The radio system will need to be upgraded eventually, but it doesn't necessarily mean they need a $54 million radio system tomorrow when most of their users have only been on MERA for ~6-7 years (is this a realistic service life for SmartZone? It's seems low but I'm honestly not sure.). I'm really not sure why Marin isn't considering this option. I'm pretty sure most of the large trunking systems in Southern CA have either already done it or are in the process of doing it.
The radio system will need to be upgraded eventually, but it doesn't necessarily mean they need a $54 million radio system tomorrow when most of their users have only been on MERA for ~6-7 years (is this a realistic service life for SmartZone? It's seems low but I'm honestly not sure.). I'm really not sure why Marin isn't considering this option. I'm pretty sure most of the large trunking systems in Southern CA have either already done it or are in the process of doing it.
Just think of all the LMR tech and IT jobs this new wonderful investment in public safety will provide for years to come, also the new layers of bureaucracy, and government efficiency these funds will buy.
$54 Million will buy a lot of government efficiency!
Does no one in government do any homework?
Did someone secretly outlaw conventional radio systems?
Are budget deficits merely illusions?
When they hear Motorola in Marin is the only thing retained 'Mota'?
Who in /\/\ has the compromising photos of the Marin County BOS?
$54 Million will buy a lot of government efficiency!
Does no one in government do any homework?
Did someone secretly outlaw conventional radio systems?
Are budget deficits merely illusions?
When they hear Motorola in Marin is the only thing retained 'Mota'?
Who in /\/\ has the compromising photos of the Marin County BOS?
What makes you think there is any subterfuge in play here?
- MERA is on UHF T-Band.
- Congress has mandated that Public Safety agencies on T-Band clear those frequencies to allow the United States to action the spectrum to raise funds by 2021.
- Auction proceeds are supposed to pay for the relocation (the public safety associations estimate it will cost almost $6B to clear the spectrum).
- The only space to go in the area with a system that size is 700 MHz.
- 700 MHz requires more sites to cover the same area.
- More than 6 channels? Must be trunked under FCC Regs.
Edit: And who said Motorola will get the contract?
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1. They have 10 more years to move.
2. Show me a non-Motorola trunked public safety trunked system that is live in the bay area.
2a because that's what the consultant will say.
3. Litigation coupled with congress reconsidering the t band mandate may mitigate the need to move.
4. COCO county is about to vacate significant VHF.
4a. 460mhz
4b. 453mhz
5. If not in 700 there is no trunking mandate.
6 auctions do not equate to free money, someone else is paying for it. It just makes it simpler to form a jpa and spend money government has no business with in the first place. Its no taxpayer dollars, its special money with less oversight and accountability.
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2. Show me a non-Motorola trunked public safety trunked system that is live in the bay area.
2a because that's what the consultant will say.
3. Litigation coupled with congress reconsidering the t band mandate may mitigate the need to move.
4. COCO county is about to vacate significant VHF.
4a. 460mhz
4b. 453mhz
5. If not in 700 there is no trunking mandate.
6 auctions do not equate to free money, someone else is paying for it. It just makes it simpler to form a jpa and spend money government has no business with in the first place. Its no taxpayer dollars, its special money with less oversight and accountability.
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1. In planning and funding a good sized system, 10 years can go by really fast.
2. Oakland (Harris)
2a. If the consultant is any good, no longer true.
3. Please cite any 'litigation'. Yes, Congress can change the requirement, but too many members who put the requirement in are still there.
4, 4a, 4b. All co-channeled in the neighborhood (think neighbors to the north ...)
5. Yes, but try to get the spectral efficiency without it.
6. Opinion noted.
SmartZone30
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Greetings All;
I have been following all this for some time now and would like to respectfully correct some facts stated on this thread. I am the lead tech that installed the original MERA system.
#1. The System is a SmartZone 3.0, not 4.1. MERA never did the upgrade. It is currently running on the original compact IMP Zone Controller.
#2 The system was conceived in 1998. The system was actually staged and shipped in the first quarter of 2000. It sat in a warehouse for most of the year, due to site acquisition problems with the county. Most of it was installed and functional by late 2002, early 2003. Final Project system acceptance signoff in 2005.
#3 The County is moving forward with a Migration Plan. I just returned from a 2 week tour in Schaumburg staging the new P25, 7.13 Master Site with SmartX that is going to replace the aging IMP controller and Zone management system. This will give a migration path to P25 and future system updating and upgrading, as well as support. This will also make it possible for the County to move into the MCC7500 console system that is replacing the Gold Elite Console system that is no longer available after a product life of more than 15 years.
Unfortunately, our Congress has found yet another way to come up with more "revenue" by way of taking back the T-Band spectrum and auctioning it off to the highest bidder. Yes, there are efforts underway to reverse this, but as someone else stated, it takes a long time to plan, aquire and install these systems. Sadly, the way technologies that make these systems possible, evolve and change so quickly, it is hard to keep support and parts available for longer periods of time.
I have been following all this for some time now and would like to respectfully correct some facts stated on this thread. I am the lead tech that installed the original MERA system.
#1. The System is a SmartZone 3.0, not 4.1. MERA never did the upgrade. It is currently running on the original compact IMP Zone Controller.
#2 The system was conceived in 1998. The system was actually staged and shipped in the first quarter of 2000. It sat in a warehouse for most of the year, due to site acquisition problems with the county. Most of it was installed and functional by late 2002, early 2003. Final Project system acceptance signoff in 2005.
#3 The County is moving forward with a Migration Plan. I just returned from a 2 week tour in Schaumburg staging the new P25, 7.13 Master Site with SmartX that is going to replace the aging IMP controller and Zone management system. This will give a migration path to P25 and future system updating and upgrading, as well as support. This will also make it possible for the County to move into the MCC7500 console system that is replacing the Gold Elite Console system that is no longer available after a product life of more than 15 years.
Unfortunately, our Congress has found yet another way to come up with more "revenue" by way of taking back the T-Band spectrum and auctioning it off to the highest bidder. Yes, there are efforts underway to reverse this, but as someone else stated, it takes a long time to plan, aquire and install these systems. Sadly, the way technologies that make these systems possible, evolve and change so quickly, it is hard to keep support and parts available for longer periods of time.
This is the first face itigation. Suing government is a process, this will grow up to an actual lawsuit in the next step.
http://transition.fcc.gov/Daily_Releases/Daily_Business/2012/db1226/DA-12-2078A1.txt
Sorry i laid a bit of a trap for you there. Oakland is a Motorola P25 system Harris is a memory. EDACS served them well but for many years but trust me everyone watched Oakland abort Harris for Motorola. If you think for one moment that a Motorola rep has not used this as a political sales tool then ha.
The consultant hired determines the outcome. So, you hire the consultant who will provide that outcome. big deal.
Consultants are hired to shield elected officials when potentially risky and expensive decisions are made. Radio systems fit nicely here as do stadiums. If a consultant says it is best it would be 'stupid' to disregard their advice particularly when that's what you told them you wanted in the first place.
Being psychic, I can predict a consultants stated outcome prior to publication. Watch what I do here : read their prior work and evaluate their employment history.
So basically you are asserting that consultants are more ethical now than in years past? Ethics ,consultant , and politician does conjure a virginal white vision when I close my eyes. Try it, you will be psychic too!
With all the former employees of the same companies who benefit doing the consulting, I ask you for an offer of proof on the progression of ethics in this niche.
I think your government employee bias may be showing. Spectral efficiency should be the very least of concerns when providing cops and firefighters comms that work. Your position is one that I have encountered for years that provides the Public Safety worker with something that works 78 per cent of the time with 100% spectral efficiency.
Unfortunately, that cop or firefighter needs as much of the effort to go to having the frigging radio work vice spectral efficiency. No ones life has ever been harmed by too little spectral efficiency, but I can assure you special people who we should be protecting with our choices have been harmed because of too much spectral efficiency.
The system manager gets to go home at 3, have a gin & tonic, bang his old lady and be in neverland while the beat cop in someplace like east Oakland has to live with, and is counting on, being able to focus resources at a critical moment.
Let's talk about four cops in east Oakland and spectral efficiency. How much of a factor were comms? You decide. My colleagues tell me factor, the AAR not do much, the consultant not so much. I will take the word of the only ones whose pay never changed.
Radio is never ever perfect for the end user I get that, been there, but I could give two shakes of a crack pipe about spectral efficiency give me something that works when it needs to. You do not need to spend 54 million dollars on a question mark when you can spend it on an exclamation point as in excellent!
Trunking is contrary to the best interest of public safety, public safety workers and the efficient use of taxpayer dollars.
I do agree that 10 years is tomorrow in government time.kudos for planning and creating the exigency early so it can be discussed publicly.
I appreciate the discourse on this and learn from the exchange of concepts with others. Thank you.
Respectfully,
Mike
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I will wait for those in the area to weigh in (I've been out of Northen CA for 7 years), but Dailey-Wells (the vendor) is a Harris shop, and the System ID/WACN are Harris.
I think we would have heard if they (D-W and Harris) got the boot.
No, and I fully recognize that not every entity does their due dilligence on selecting an honest consulting firm. There ARE honest ones out there.
OK, I get it that you don't like trunking.
First responders have been injured or lost their lives in part due to too little spectral efficiency (various fire incidents around the country involving trunking systems, AND incidents involving VHF simplex communications where firefighters died due to co-channel interference from more than 100 miles away. I agree we whould be doing our best to protect those who are on the line. And conditions are not universaly the same everywhere, so there is no one answer.
As do I, Mike.
Respectfully,
Don
The Oakland system is definitely a Harris P25 system. Motorola systems are limited to 4 control CCs per site (1 active, 3 alternate). Oakland has rotated through at least 6 CCs since the system came online in 2011, which is why we recently marked all of the frequencies as alternates.
Other non-Motorola public safety trunked systems that come to mind are the Bay Area Rapid Transit EDACS system (used by BART PD) and Ames Research Center EDACS system (used by NASA Ames PD/FD). Also, the 700 MHz P25 Golden Gate Bridge District system currently being implemented by EADS will be utilized by the bridge patrol.
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