Marion Police going encrypted?

[Signal3and2]

I've heard alot of talk about Marion PD going encrypted soon. They currently have digital capabilities that they dont even use. Why the need encryption is beyond me.

I was hearing this directly from Marion PD officers, and at first I thought maybe they didnt know enough about radios to know that maybe they were just switching to digital and using the wrong terminology. However, I've noticed that all the cars are having their mobile radios replaced with new radios. Since the old radios were already digital capable, it makes me wonder if they really ARE going to encryption.

Has anybody heard anything about this, or have any other info that will help us be able to scan them anytime?

 

[w0fg]

It's hard to tell. Do you know what brand of radios they are using? The obvious move would be to the shared APCO 25 system with CR, but that might be too logical. Out here in Benton county, the SO has one encrypted VHF frequency that they refer to as Channel 15, and the Vinton city police are running full-time MA/COM ProVoice VHF radios. With the availability of DHS funding since 9/11, a lot of departments have made the move to encryption, and more and more will be going to APCO 25 digital systems as interoperability becomes increasingly mandated.

 

[Signal3and2]

I haven't had a chance to look or ask what kind of radios they are. Im not sure why they think they need encryption, but I guess Marion has never been known to be short on cash for the police. oh well, at least cedar rapids is more fun to listen to anyway, and I don't think they'll be going encrypted for quite some time after spending 5 million on their current digital system.

Also, I didn't know Vinton PD was encrypted!

 

[w0fg]

Yep, Vinton PD has been encrypted for at least 3 or 4 years. BCSO uses "CH 15" and/or digital pagers for almost all personal data so about the only things you hear up this way are the initial dispatch activity and the typical 10-28's and 10-50 info on the SO repeater. I think we'll continue to see a trend in that direction everywhere. As an inveterate eavesdropper I don't like it, but as a former Navy spook I have no difficulty understanding why it's becoming more and more commonplace. There are plenty of reasons, both tactical and strategic.

 

[splash1]

I still can't think of any reason tactical or stratgic why any law enforcement should have all radio traffic encrypted. Who will then police the police if not us. Dont get me wrong i'm all pro police, X-cop my self. But that freedom need not be taken away from citizens of the US.
Rick

 

[w0fg]

You police the police through the oversight of the elected body responsible for them, be it the city council, board of supervisors or state legislature. I don't believe that there is any inherent right to know that an officer is on the way to break up a meth lab, or that a SWAT team sniper is preparing to take out a hostage taker until the event is concluded. You might receive prurient enjoyment from hearing your underage neighbor kid being busted for beer possession, but maybe not so much enjoyment from knowing that the whole town just heard that your daughter was riding with him. Privacy protection works both ways.

 

[Declared_Hostile]

All of that has been open to the public for 50+ years now and all of a sudden it has to be encrypted? No. It's just a further symptom of the US vs. Them, Law Enforcement vs Civilian (and the wrongness of those terms in and of themselves) and the militarization of the police.

Everything but the most sensitive communications should remain in the clear and unencrypted for multiple reasons one of which being transparency the public.

 

[SkipSanders]

No, suddenly it can be encrypted, easily and fairly cheaply.

Most police chiefs (as opposed to their troops) have always considered themselves and their operations as 'none of the public's business'.

They're simply, though the need to upgrade folks to the new digital systems in order to narrowband everything, all at the same time, with money being provided by Homeland Stupidity, able to actually do it, now. If they could have afforded it, they'd have encrypted/scrambled everything 20 years ago.

 

[w0fg]

No, suddenly it can be encrypted, easily and fairly cheaply.....
If they could have afforded it, they'd have encrypted/scrambled everything 20 years ago.

Exactly. When I started dispatching back in the mid 60's, the only civilians who had mobile radios capable of receiving even one or two frequencies were other dispatchers, and for the most part, the only people listening from fixed locations were broadcast stations or newspapers who owned a whole bank of single-frequency Regency or Sonar receivers. Nobody felt any need to encrypt because you had a virtually private system as it was. With HCFA/HIPAA legislation and other privacy regs, maintaining security started to become mandatory. Our local ambulance service, for instance, has gone to digital cellular phones for relaying of patient reports, just for that reason. As far as the "militarization of the police" , take at look at the militarization of the opposition in large metropolitan areas and along our southern border. Juarez, and a large chunk of that border area has just been placed off limits to US military personnel for crying out loud. Sure, I'd like to hear everything that goes on, like I was able to do back in the day, but I can't fault the logic of any department that feels they need to encrypt.

 

[splash1]

And i thought i still lived in America.
Rick

 

[Declared_Hostile]

Oh they “feel the need” for a lot of things. Just because those in charge of departments want it doesn't mean it is good and proper for them to have it. Every time new catalogs come out or budget time comes around they have all sorts of “feelings” come over them. The public would be wise to deliver a corrective slap across the nose with a rolled up newspaper at those times or a good hard yank on the choke chain.

 

[JoeyC]

The public would be wise to deliver a corrective slap across the nose with a rolled up newspaper at those times or a good hard yank on the choke chain.

The public would probably agree with the chief and vote for securing the system. The chief sure may be interested in the latest and greatest whatever, and if they can afford it, why not? They are being paid to manage a department and an encrypted radio system is a tool. They are not in the business of providing entertainment for scanner enthusiasts, so what the scanner enthusiast has to say in the manner is irrelevant. :roll:

 

[Declared_Hostile]

The public would probably agree with the chief and vote for securing the system. The chief sure may be interested in the latest and greatest whatever, and if they can afford it, why not? They are being paid to manage a department and an encrypted radio system is a tool. They are not in the business of providing entertainment for scanner enthusiasts, so what the scanner enthusiast has to say in the manner is irrelevant. :roll:

Yeah the public can be duped into about anything.

Why not? Because they have no need for it. They should not be conducting their day to day business hidden from public scrutiny. Secrecy like that is corrosive. They are not some military organization or some secret police force or internal security force like something from behind the old iron curtain. They're suppose to be Peace Officers. Then again they're doing quite a few things and using plenty of "tools" military organizations, internal paramilitary police forces would use that Peace Officers would not so one shouldn't exactly be surprised I suppose.

 

[w0fg]

Why not? Because they have no need for it. They should not be conducting their day to day business hidden from public scrutiny. .

So by that line of reasoning, they should also be barred from using cellphones, MDTs and text pagers, AEGIS or ProVoice digital, in addition to encryption? I guess the next step would also be to take away the AR15 carbines, the shotguns, and the semi-auto handguns as those are all used by the military and have them go back to carrying Colt Peacemakers.

 

[Declared_Hostile]

So by that line of reasoning, they should also be barred from using cellphones, MDTs and text pagers, AEGIS or ProVoice digital, in addition to encryption? I guess the next step would also be to take away the AR15 carbines, the shotguns, and the semi-auto handguns as those are all used by the military and have them go back to carrying Colt Peacemakers.

No, but barring them from using SWAT tanks, wearing masks, wearing military gear, dressing like soldiers or acquiring used gear from the DoD would be a start.

 

[JoeyC]

No, but barring them from using SWAT tanks, wearing masks, wearing military gear, dressing like soldiers or acquiring used gear from the DoD would be a start.

This may be appropriate at the Mayberry police department with Barney Fife and Sheriff Andy Taylor of the 1960s, but todays crooks and criminals are of a different breed than those of yesteryear. Are you suggesting that police departments abandon the use of high-tech gear in favor of slingshots and mace? Do you remember the North Hollywood shootout of 1997? The stolen tank rampage of 1995? What are police departments to do in situations where the criminal means business and is heavily armed? Wave the white flag and bail out like Harry Reid suggests?

I think you're living in a fantasy world if you don't believe law enforcement needs to be prepared with weaponry, special equipment and appropriate secure radio communications in this world in the 21st century...

 

[Declared_Hostile]

This may be appropriate at the Mayberry police department with Barney Fife and Sheriff Andy Taylor of the 1960s, but todays crooks and criminals are of a different breed than those of yesteryear. Are you suggesting that police departments abandon the use of high-tech gear in favor of slingshots and mace? Do you remember the North Hollywood shootout of 1997? The stolen tank rampage of 1995? What are police departments to do in situations where the criminal means business and is heavily armed? Wave the white flag and bail out like Harry Reid suggests?

I think you're living in a fantasy world if you don't believe law enforcement needs to be prepared with weaponry, special equipment and appropriate secure radio communications in this world in the 21st century...

We're veering into off-topic ground so I'm going to but the brakes on much in the way of adding much further, but if you're really interested in the subject I'd suggest you take along hard look into the subject and do a little research as to what all that gear is actually being used for and who is getting killed with it.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=6476
Read the whole thing - not just the executive summary. The report just scratches the surface.

This just happened recently.

http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/atlanta/stories/2007/04/27/0427metdetails.html

It isn't being used for its intended use such as bank robberies and the like or terrorist situations. In fact recently we've seen just how impotent swat teams are in school shootings. I have no problem with police being armed with the best handguns and carrying high powered rifles like AR-15s in squad cars. No one should have a problem with that bedwetting hopolophobes notwithstanding. What I have a problem with is police driving tanks, dressing like soldiers, using paramilitary tactics, wearing masks like common bandits, the use of military equipment procured from the DoD, the very troubling use of DoD troops and assets and especially the use of dynamic entry and no knock raids or knock and announce raids.

 

[JoeyC]

We're veering into off-topic ground

I'll say.

Those links you provided have absolutely nothing to do with the topic of this thread which is Marion Police encryption.

In regards to the links you provided, yes, I'm well aware that there are bad apples in just about any profession. Based on those couple of isolated examples, I wouldn't make paranoid generalizations though about police departments, or SWAT teams.

 

[owenmcc1]

I would check for frequencies at the RadioReference.com Database. Also try SCANiowa.com