McLennan County Announces Digital Migration

[Ensnared]

Although I find the remarks of the McClennan County SO to be quite amusing, it looks as though there is a time line for migration to digital radios. This article also stated that Waco PD will be switching to digital this coming June. Commissioners Approve Local Sheriff's Request For $500,000 Radio Upgrade

Here is a quote from the Sheriff's Office:

“Times are changing. Analog is on its way out, and digital is on its way in,” McLennan County Chief Deputy Matt Cawthon said.

“If we don’t go digital...and the analog system goes down, then we will be without a dispatch service,” he said.

“Imagine a call going to 911, if we are unable to respond because we don’t have a radio system, then we’re in trouble,” Cawthon said.

“We will be in trouble and the people who need us will be in trouble.”

The only other option, Cawthon said, would have been to create a new dispatch center for the sheriff’s office, but that would have cost taxpayers millions of dollars, significantly more than the conversion to digital radios."

From what I understand, there are quite a few digital systems causing communication nightmares across these United States. Some, like Open Sky, are worse than others.

Another example was recently posted in the news about communication difficulties in the Woodway P25 system. I'm still hearing transmissions that have to be repeated due to poor quality. But, I think there has been some improvement with their system.

TxWarn P25 already has a listing of talk groups for Waco PD & McClennan County. So, hopefully, they will go in this direction.

If anyone knows how to find government documents regarding this move, I would appreciate the post.

 

[nd5y]

If anyone knows how to find government documents regarding this move, I would appreciate the post.

Search your city council and county web sites for meeting agendas and minutes and bid proposals.
Search the FCC database every day for new applications and license in your area.

 

[Ensnared]

TxWarn P25?

Search your city council and county web sites for meeting agendas and minutes and bid proposals.
Search the FCC database every day for new applications and license in your area.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why this county & Woodway, Texas aren't joining TxWarn P25. I don't know who submitted the information on McLennan County talk groups specific to the TxWarn P25 System.

I've been monitoring ETMC & Waco PD on this system for some time now. Waco PD has been using about 5 of the talk groups as of late.

I looked through the Commissioner's minutes & found none. Of course, there is a possibility they've not posted the minutes yet.

But, I will be checking the FCC DB for any submissions or changes.

 

[M_T]

For the life of me, I cannot understand why this county & Woodway, Texas aren't joining TxWarn P25. I don't know who submitted the information on McLennan County talk groups specific to the TxWarn P25 System.

I've been monitoring ETMC & Waco PD on this system for some time now. Waco PD has been using about 5 of the talk groups as of late.

I looked through the Commissioner's minutes & found none. Of course, there is a possibility they've not posted the minutes yet.

But, I will be checking the FCC DB for any submissions or changes.

That goes the same for Lacy-Lakeview PD/FD and TSTC PD. Both departments went to a VHF P25 Trunking system that Lacy-Lakeview had installed by Bearcomm. The system has only worked maybe less that 6 months total time since being installed in 2010/11. It has crashed several times and Bearcomm can't seem to fix the problems. They are operating on the old analog repeaters now that barley work to begin with. Leave it up to department admin staff that think VHF is always better and departments that do not want to work together. That is McLennan County's biggest issue, agencies don't like to work with each other!

 

[Ensnared]

McLennan County SO P25?

Now, I'm scratching my head about the new update to McLennan county. From what I've read, the frequency, 155.73, was causing problems with Woodway's TSYS. The operating frequencies for Woodway show this frequency to be "iac" in Pro96.Com. I just ran this to see.

So, here is my question. If Woodway is running the same NAC as the "new" McClennan County P25 frequency, how is my PSR 500 going to know the difference between the two?

I know that Woodway is supposed to be adding new frequencies, but I'm not seeing these in Pro96.Com.

I have loaded this new P25 McLennan county frequency into my PSR 500. I am going to wait & see what happens. I know that migration takes some time. At present, I am still hearing the Sheriff's Office on 154.875 & on Waco/McLennan County analog TSYS. Nothing on P25.

 

[knightrider]

Wow, a Retired U.S. Marshal, and a Retired Texas Ranger. I kind of figured Matt would be smart enough to use his cellphone if the systems went down. Like Louisiana, these large States are going to go to a large linked system, and when it goes down, and no computers to take care of the data, then they WILL be in a real mess. I don't know why they think it's a Great Gift from God, when it's Smoke from the radio fairies...

 

[reedeb]

Wow, a Retired U.S. Marshal, and a Retired Texas Ranger. I kind of figured Matt would be smart enough to use his cellphone if the systems went down. Like Louisiana, these large States are going to go to a large linked system, and when it goes down, and no computers to take care of the data, then they WILL be in a real mess. I don't know why they think it's a Great Gift from God, when it's Smoke from the radio fairies...

Stupid is as Stupid does

 

[Ensnared]

Radio Traffic

In my opinion, the McLennan County Sheriff's Office is not using this frequency for P25 transmissions. After loading said frequency into my PSR 500, the radio quickly locked on 155.73.

As expected, I heard two transmissions that confirmed my theory, that this is an operating frequency of Woodway's TSYS. The first transmission came from Woodway PD. The other transmission came from Hewitt Fire calling for "engine 2."

You see, the NAC for Woodway & the updated Sheriff Dispatch channel are one in the same.

 

[SCPD]

Well first the County has to go out for bid's which Wear Communications, Bosshard and a few others will try to make a bid on. Then they will have to license new frequencies or modify existing licenses (look for 8K emissions on the license grants if its straight up P25)

Bottom line is that you don't just switch to P25 overnight after the Commissioners court agrees to go digital .... its a process, a migration.

I could realistically see McLennan Co. going to TXWARN rather than building a New, Stand alone Digital radio system, TXWARN would be much more cost effective and offer much more efficient communications and interoperability. But honestly I wouldn't expect to see anything until much later this year.

Oh and just for grins, OpenSky, NXDN, TRBO, MPT are all great radio systems, the only thing glitchy about them is the glitchy companies that install them.

 

[Russell]

It is my understanding that the county will not join TxWARN because there are per radio user fees. The county wants own their system outright like they do the VHF repeaters right now and want to be able to load it with as many radios as necessary without incurring per radio monthly rent.

 

[Ensnared]

New Sheriff

It is my understanding that the county will not join TxWARN because there are per radio user fees. The county wants own their system outright like they do the VHF repeaters right now and want to be able to load it with as many radios as necessary without incurring per radio monthly rent.

That would be a smart move. I expect them to start showing up on 154.875, digital. They are already using DCS. I've been searching through the county proposals. I do know they were approved for the purchase of automatic weapons.

Since I don't want to thread jump, please refer to my other thread, Woodway. I don't want to post the same information twice, but this applies to SO. I found a new talk group today. However, before I post, I am going to go over to my trusty Pro 2049 and key in 154.875 to see if I can hear simultaneous transmissions on the new TG. I will be posting later when confirmed.

 

[Jay911]

Hi folks,

I think I'm in the right topic. I'm in the region around Waco right now and have discovered something substantially screwed up in the area.

I put my HomePatrol on analyze mode while going through Waco and it discovered RFSS 1, site 1, of system 572. After a bit of recording on that, my brain said "wait a minute.." - I'd remembered at that point that TxWARN is system 1A7.

So I backed out of analyze mode and ensured I was in the Waco site of TxWARN, and tried again, and got 1A7 RFSS 2 site 30 showing up.

Just for kicks, I did it again, and got 572.

There is a P25 Phase II (4 band plans, the standard 700 and 800 plans with one for each slot) system currently running on 858.2125, announcing 857.2125, 857.2625, and 859.2125 as alt CCs, as sysid 572, WACN BEE00. I ran Unitrunker on this for a bit tonight and only got one radio login/affiliate, radio 1493 joined talkgroup 3.

TxWARN is also running with a CC on 859.2125, broadcasting alt CCs of 857.2125, 857.2625, and 858.2125, with a small handful of 851.x/852.x/853.x voice channels (basically as it appears in the DB, if the poor admin hasn't gotten to my submissions yet - and I apologize if you have, and didn't read the last one saying "don't do any of this!"). This is broadcasting sysid 1A7, WACN BEE00.

As you can see above, both systems are advertising the same set of frequencies as their control channels. In fact I think at some point in the afternoon, they must have been on the same frequency for their CCs, because I have a HomePatrol log showing a sysid/WACN report of BEE00-1A7 and RFSS 001-001, sysid 572 - in the same log.

I would imagine radio users don't have any trouble with these systems because their radios monitor the NACs. A scanner user is probably going to have a very hard time of it, though, especially if the scanner happily acts on trunk messages from both systems (if both systems end up using the same CC, as I believe happened earlier).

I don't know how they got the OK to do this. According to the FCC, both licenses are on the same tower. I suppose it could be an ISSI link - neither site is showing any peers/neighbor sites.

TxWARN is granting voice traffic to its alt control channels which you'll notice includes the active CC and alt CCs for the 572 system. I don't think 858.2125 has been asked to carry voice by TxWARN yet, but if it does, I presume the 572 system would see it as interference on their CC and force the CC to roll.

I have one radio on each system pumping data into Unitrunker tonight. We'll see what happens...

 

[rattlerbb01]

Jay, I am holding all of your submissions. When we have this figured out just a little more about what they are doing in Waco, we will decide where to go. Usually Lou or Eric are the go to guys with TxWARN, especially with all the Houston stuff going on lately, but I will hold them until they have had time to check in here and see your findings today. When they have responded here, I will release the submissions to them to work as they see fit.

 

[Jay911]

Thanks and sorry for the small flurry there. Only the ones about TxWARN and the enigmatic sys 572 need be held.

 

[Jay911]

Here's what overnight (and some "live monitoring" today) revealed.

TxWARN Waco Site:
- Frequencies in use: 859.2125 (Control), 857.2625 (alt CC & voice), 858.2125 (alt CC); 851.925 (voice), 853.9875 (voice), 856.2125 (voice).
- The voice channels each have 1200+ hits from voice comm grants over the past ~16 hours. The 858.2125 (which is also part of the Waco system - see below) has 0 voice grant hits, but is being announced as an alt CC (delete it in Unitrunker and it comes right back).
- The following frequencies have zero hits for any use: 851.425, 852.1, 853.5, 853.65, 855.2125.

Waco system 572 (newly discovered):
- Frequencies in use: 858.2125 (control), 854.0125 (CW ID), 857.2125 (alt CC), 857.2625 (alt CC), 859.2125 (alt CC); 855.2125 (voice), 856.2375 (voice), 858.7625 (voice).
- The voice channels have 35-50 hits over the past 16 hours of monitoring. None of the alt CCs gave any voice grants.
- Note that 858.2125, 857.2625, and 859.2125 are somehow common to both systems.
- CW ID is WQKV397, broadcasting at 30 minute intervals, roughly :23 and :53.
- I detected some "test test 12345" type transmissions on talkgroups 4 and 5 earlier today.
- Talkgroups with at least 1 hit, with significant numbers in parentheses: 3 (19), 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 18 (15), 19, 20, 21, 24, 27, 33, 34, 35, 37, 48, 49, 63, 108, 109, 110, 123, 126, 127, 129, 138 (23), 153, 154, 155 (13), 168, 185, 228, 243 (25), 258.

I couldn't help but notice there is a Motorola system 572D in the database, for East Texas Medical Center. In other locales, it's not uncommon to build a P25 system and link it to the Motorola system, in which case (often but not always) the talkgroups on the Motorola system, divided by 16, are the talkgroups on the P25 system (if said systems are linked). However, none of the "busy" talkgroups listed above correspond meaningfully to any talkgroups in the 572D system.

I would recommend modifying the TxWARN P25 entry in the DB as above, and adding sys 572, again as above, and letting everyone else monitor and hopefully figure out what is going on here.

 

[rattlerbb01]

I'll look into making those modifications tomorrow if I don't get a response from the guys that normally take care of TxWARN. If you can, do me a favor though and see what kind of voice traffic is on those new talkgroups on the 572 system. If they are Phase II, if they are linked to 1A7, what agency they might be, etc...

 

[Jay911]

Yeah, I'm working on that part. I'll be in the Hillsboro-West-Waco area for a couple days yet so I'll have my radios tuned to that system. The HomePatrol, oddly, has landed on some of those talkgroups but with no audio. I'm not sure if that's indicative of a P2 talkgroup grant - I have no experience trying to monitor a P2 system - so I'll have to do some experimenting, probably tonight or tomorrow.

Edit: Tons of activity today. Definitely some of it is city services related.. I'm thinking trash collection from what I can hear about confiscating wheelie bins/carts (only allowed one and they have three out) and picking up brush (piles?). Another guy talked about "switching to [his] new radio".

I've programmed the Waco Motorola system into my other scanner but so far none of the activity is coinciding. In fact the Waco Mot system is rather silent except for PD. Maybe I discovered this all in time for the changeover to happen today..

I also had to remove 859.2125 from the scanner tracking the 572 system, otherwise it would scan 572, then scan TxWARN as well (because 859.2125 is TxWARN 002-030's current CC).

 

[Russell]

Jay,

You are right on with your info. All, except the PD have moved off the old Waco Mot system to the TxWARN system; this includes Waco city services.. The Waco TxWARN site was, indeed, build from the old ETMC Mot site (572D) in Waco a couple of years ago; the frequencies were all migrated to TxWARN. The Ellis County ETMC site is the only remaining site left of that system and it is still active as 572D. If you're in Hill County you could easily be hearing both TxWARN in Waco and ETMC in Waxahachie (Ellis); though I don't understand why the TXWARN frequencies are up as the old ETMC Waco Mot site. They were supposed to migrate freqs from Waco MOT to TxWARN as the users moved.

Do you suppose one of the systems you're hearing could be using pre-Reband frequencies?

 

[Ensnared]

Recent RR DB Changes in McLennan County

I don't believe the LLV RR DB is accurate even after it was recently modified. Otherwise, I would be able to hear them here in Waco. Previously, I was able to receive LLV with relative ease, even inside the HEB on Hewitt drive.

Like Woodway, they've been experiencing difficulties, particularly with the company installing the product, Bearcom.

I know that GRE radios cannot decode VHF P25 trunking systems, but I am unsure about Home Patrol.

Regarding the site ID on the Woodway system, I missed the error regarding system ID. I still have my PDF submission data & it was correct, BEE00.

Now, regarding the Waco PD migration, we've been listening to TxWarn P25 for Waco PD for quite some time. But, there have been few talk groups being used for Waco PD.

Last November, possibly into December, digital H (TG 2421) & digital J (TG 2423) went mostly silent. TSA, the Lone Star Task force & USMS were using Digital J most of the time, but they have been using various talk groups on the old MOT system for McLennan County. I don't know whether these radios were on loan from the feds since they stopped being used at the end of last year.

Currently, the only two TxWarn P25 transmissions being used for Waco PD are DEU1 (TG 2417) & DEU2 (TG 2418). These two talk groups are pretty active & fully encrypted.

The only other Tx Warn P25 Talk Group I've heard for Waco PD was that of 2431, Police Events 2. This talk group was active during Baylor football games.

Otherwise, Waco PD is expected to migrate some time in June, 2013. I bet the digital migration will coincide with the opening of the new Waco PD center at the old Hillcrest hospital.

I appreciate the help from our firefighter friend.

One day, my future PSR 800 might do a better job with site analysis.

 

[Jay911]

I just want to clarify that this new system which is conflicting with TxWARN is NOT a TxWARN site and NOT Motorola Type II system 572D. It is possible that it's linked to 572D - we have some systems in Canada, and I think there are some systems in various US locales, where a Mot system has been linked to a P25 system and even uses a modification of the Mot sysid as its P25 sysid. If it is, though, they're not simulcasting the audio on both systems.

P25 system 572 is carrying Waco and area public works traffic. Plenty of people were going on about their new radios today, and testing out the range "at the edge of the city", etc. I have some data to go through which I'll submit later this evening.

There is definitely going to be a problem if people program 858.2125 and/or 859.2125 in both the 572 Waco system and 1A7 TxWARN system, because scanners don't watch for the NAC and thus just treat the P25 control channel as valid regardless of what you've named the system you've put it in. If, at this particular moment in time, you have 858.2125 in your TxWARN config, you will pick up the Waco 572 system. Vice-versa goes for having 859.2125 in this new Waco 572 system - you'll pick up TxWARN traffic. I haven't explored long enough to determine if any talkgroups overlap, so if you wanted to, I guess you could put both control channels (and both sets of talkgroups) in one system, but I think you'd just be asking for a royal mess.

The good news is that although 572 is broadcasting bandplans for Phase 2 functionality, all frequencies/talkgroups I've logged so far are Phase 1 only.

I am picking up 572 fine from the Czech Inn in West. Same for TxWARN site 002-030 Waco. For what it's worth, neither Woodway nor Lacy-Lakeview are receivable at this location using my 396XT with a SRH789 antenna. I have picked them up in the car with a Spectrum Force magmount on my HP1, though.