Media story on encryption

[marcotor]

But, it doesn't matter. These agencies all agreed to encrypt the data when they signed up for access to the databases. In reality, they should have been doing it all along.

But.. but... SCANNER USERS SAVE LIVES AND FIGHT CRIME!!!

 

[a417]

Just hoping Fire doesn't go silent as I'll have a couple of SDS 200's for sale.

I'll make a fair offer on them, LMK when you are ready.

 

[mmckenna]

But.. but... SCANNER USERS SAVE LIVES AND FIGHT CRIME!!!

I, once again, extend the challenge to any scanner listener to please post their personal information on this site:
Full legal name
Drivers License Number
Description, including height, weight, color hair, color eyes, any unique identifying features.
Mailing Address
Date of Birth
Full criminal history
Past interactions with law enforcement
If they own firearms
License number, VIN, Make, model, color of the vehicle you drive.
Current health issues with full details.

Funny thing is, each time I ask this, no one does it. I wonder why?

 

[belvdr]

I, once again, extend the challenge to any scanner listener to please post their personal information on this site:
Full legal name
Drivers License Number
Description, including height, weight, color hair, color eyes, any unique identifying features.
Mailing Address
Date of Birth
Full criminal history
Past interactions with law enforcement
If they own firearms
License number, VIN, Make, model, color of the vehicle you drive.
Current health issues with full details.

Funny thing is, each time I ask this, no one does it. I wonder why?

I'm not sure I follow your logic.

 

[INDaviation]

Just hoping Fire doesn't go silent as I'll have a couple of SDS 200's for sale.

I doubt it, considering how often Marion County (Wayne Twp, Pike Twp, Speedway, IFD) companies respond into Brownsburg and Avon.

 

[mmckenna]

I'm not sure I follow your logic.

Logic is:
A few scanner listeners want to hear private information about others for their own entertainment.

I'm simply extending the offer for them to prove how serious they are on this.

If they are -really- against encryption, then they'd have no issues at all if their private information and life situation was shared with any of us that wanted to know it just for our own personal entertainment.

Fair is fair.

 

[belvdr]

Logic is:
A few scanner listeners want to hear private information about others for their own entertainment.

I'm simply extending the offer for them to prove how serious they are on this.

If they are -really- against encryption, then they'd have no issues at all if their private information and life situation was shared with any of us that wanted to know it just for our own personal entertainment.

Fair is fair.

Gotcha, I had no idea some listeners wanted to hear personal info like that. Strange.

However, I don't equate personal info transmitted over RF to be the same as posting on a web site. Scraping info from a public facing web site is trivial. On topic, I don't think you'll get any takers.

 

[mmckenna]

On topic, I don't think you'll get any takers.

I know, it's a funny double standard.

There is no reason why anyone should be forced to have their personal information shared with hobbyists. As proof, no one has ever taken me up on the offer to share all their personal details here.

As for scraping the internets versus listening to a radio:
Anyone can buy a scanner in this country. There is no shortage of help on how to program them. There are dealers that will program the radio before sending it to you. There are websites where radio traffic is streamed to anyone who wants to listen. $20 SDR's. $20 Baofengs.

Dispatchers and law enforcement officers go through extensive background checks to have access to this information. Agencies sign agreements promising to protect PII/CJI at all times.

Scanner listeners/stream listeners/hobbyists go through no background checks at all. It's just some random dude listening in.

 

[ctiller]

My thing is, I don't mind the personal info being encrypted..my argument is that you can have a single encrypted channel to air this info or do it via other means that are already encrypted. There's no need to encrypt an entire system if that is the justification

 

[belvdr]

As for scraping the internets versus listening to a radio:
Anyone can buy a scanner in this country. There is no shortage of help on how to program them. There are dealers that will program the radio before sending it to you. There are websites where radio traffic is streamed to anyone who wants to listen. $20 SDR's. $20 Baofengs.

Very true. But most people already have computers and it's easy to find scripts to scrape any info you like, and you can scrape from all over the world. You could scrape these forums with ease, as an anonymous user.

At least with RF, you're limited in both time and range. With streaming and archives, you would have the access, but it's also a very time consuming event.

All that said, I think we agree that private info should stay as private as possible.

 

[belvdr]

My thing is, I don't mind the personal info being encrypted..my argument is that you can have a single encrypted channel to air this info or do it via other means that are already encrypted. There's no need to encrypt an entire system if that is the justification

As I've said before, I think it comes down to legal coverage, time, and money. If the entire system is encrypted, there's no possible way for any private info to leak, there's no training required for anyone, thus less money is spent. I'm not an advocate of full time encryption, but that's my hunch.

That brings up a question to folks who administer RF systems: is it easier (read cheaper) to encrypt an entire system instead of specific TGs?

 

[dfoutch]

And beyond that? Like the other day, the Marshals were here in Anderson working. Out of all the radios used only ONE was encrypted.

 

[ctiller]

if it's about personal info why would FD, public works, jails etc...need to be encrypted? Think about how much each of these encrypted radios adds to the cost to taxpayers. Is it necessary?

 

[mmckenna]

if it's about personal info why would FD, public works, jails etc...need to be encrypted? Think about how much each of these encrypted radios adds to the cost to taxpayers. Is it necessary?

They don't necessarily add cost.
Every radio I've purchased at work in the last 12 years has been digital capable and included some form of encryption/scrambling in the base cost.

With more and more municipalities going to large trunked systems, it's easy to turn on encryption.
Do public works guys need encryption? No, but it's a CYA thing for some agencies.
Does the fire department need encryption? Depends. Some arson investigation teams like it. While there is no HIPAA requirement for emergency medical information to be encrypted over the radio, most agencies are seeing that there is logic in doing that, as well as the possibility that it may become a requirement in the future. Plus, it's the CYA thing again, even if someone screws up and says something they shouldn't, it's encrypted.

And not all agencies have access to trunked systems. There's a lot of small towns that have a single channel for police and another for fire/EMS, so switching to a separate encrypted records channel may not be an option.

Cell phones/terminals are an option for running this sort of traffic, and many agencies are using that. But there's some issues with that. It requires someone stopping what they are doing to type on slipper glass keyboards, fix their typos. It makes an officers life easier if they can just do it over the radio like they always have.

I totally understand the frustration of encryption. I got my start as a scanner/cb/shortwave listener.

 

[belvdr]

I totally understand the frustration of encryption. I got my start as a scanner/cb/shortwave listener.

Agreed. Encryption is frustrating from a listening perspective, but I can see why agencies do it.

 

[mmckenna]

Agreed. Encryption is frustrating from a listening perspective, but I can see why agencies do it.

Locally there have been two triggers for Encryption.
We're specifically working on this locally, and I've been talking with my counterparts in other agencies.

1. LE agencies are required to do it for any channel handling PII/CJI
2. Our fire department wants to do it because during a large brush fire about 2 years ago, they had a real issue with individuals with Baofengs. Many individuals felt that it was their duty to try and help fire fighters by getting on the radio systems and trying to give advice. It was a big enough issue that it drove the fire departments to look at encryption to keep these users off the systems.

2b. The same issue with fire agencies is happening with other conventional analog radio systems.

I know 99% hobbyists are smart enough not to do that, but as usual, it only takes a few people to ruin it for everyone else. It's the "I'm going to program it in for emergencies" attitude. Then they look for any reason to justify using it.

 

[Mattnik]

Cost is no longer a factor. They are phasing out the XTS radios on SAFE-T and the new ones come with encryption in the box. So it's not even a line item in the budget. It's just factored into the cost of radio replacement.

There's no REASON that they shouldn't encrypt every channel out there, and plenty of reasons they should. So it's all going to be sooner or later.

Even the mutual aid argument makes no sense anymore. It's trivial to load in a few keys with a keyloader. The CPS will handle the rest.

As for private industry, most of the time when new radio systems are ordered, they come with new radios, repeaters, etc. Old radios are seldom repurposed anymore with the new systems, so everyone gets a shiny new radio with full encryption. That's what Lilly's did a few years ago.

 

[INDY72]

Except that Eli Lilly only uses encryption a small amount. Most of the operations are in fact in the clear on the TRBO system.

 

[Mattnik]

Except that Eli Lilly only uses encryption a small amount. Most of the operations are in fact in the clear on the TRBO system.

Yeah I probably should have chosen a better example, but I think my point is valid.

Look at these systems:

Metropolitan School District of Lawrence Township Trunking System, Lawrence, Indiana

Metropolitan School District of Lawrence Township Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

Clark-Pleasant Community School Corporation Trunking System, Greenwood, New Whiteland,, Indiana

Clark-Pleasant Community School Corporation Trunking System Profile

www.radioreference.com

I can see a reason for encrypting the security, admin and bus TGs, but do the janitors need to be encrypted? I doubt it. But they just plopped down a purchase order and got a nice new radio system, one that supports encryption out of the box, and why not turn it on? There's nothing keeping them from doing it, and there's no reason not to, since everyone is getting new radios anyway.

These folks are appliance operators. The encryption is just icing on the cake, and why not make sure every slice of cake has it?

Matt

 

[Dispatch2323]

ISP was caught a bit off-guard today to see Hendricks County in pursuit on I-465. With Hendricks County being encrypted, can they patch to a non-encrypted talkgroup. At one point, a Trooper said he wasn't hearing a thing on Hendricks County Dispatch.