Militarization of Police in post 9/11 era

Status
Not open for further replies.

Ensnared

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Messages
3,050
Location
Waco, Texas
Arlington PD Using Drones? The Trend Continues

Yes, here is what I always wanted, a drone in the air. Smoky in the air has a whole new meaning. In the past, various aircraft have been used for many functions of LE. No, I don't always like them; however, finding fugitives is pretty important. But, in my opinion, it won't stop. How many of our liberties will be compromised with the advance of new LE toys? Here, the sky is the limit.

Now, we have drones to consider? Oh, this is rich.

Arlington PD Testing Unmanned Aircraft | NBC Dallas-Fort Worth
 

ff-medic

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
727
Location
The Appalachians - Next to the tent and campfire.
"Quote = In an effort to remedy their relative inadequacy in dealing with terrorism on U.S. soil, police forces throughout the country have purchased military equipment, adopted military training, and sought to inculcate a "soldier's mentality" among their ranks. Though the reasons for this increasing militarization of American police forces seem obvious, the dangerous side effects are somewhat less apparent."


He mentions "soldiers mentality". I guess "soldiers mentality" could be discribed differently, among a small population of people. Militarization of Police Forces is not a bad thing, as long as it is done correctly. Most, or all State Police and Highway Patrol agencys, run their agencys as Para-Military organizations. Nothing wrong with a Law Enformcement agency using Para-Military tactics as well as gear, so long as the training meets the tactics. The training being physical, as well as mental. No sense in using a piece of equipment ( generally ) , if you do not have the knowledge and the maturity to use it.

A Law Enforcement agency, whom upgrades from semi-automatic 30 caliber carbine rifles to fully automatic M4s, thorugh a government grant, may create problems wihtin the L/E agency. The officer(s) , may take more risks in a firefight, than they would have with the semi-auto .30 caliber ; risking their lives more. They may get into a firefight with multiple perps...and not call for backup- where as they would have with the .30 caliber semi-auto.

Military & Para-Military training not only involves the physical and knowledge aspect, it includes the discipline and proper mind set aspect. The training is most usually intensive and broad ; requiring many hours in the class room, as well as many hours hands on , then doing the actual hands on / physical testing, as to prove to your superiors that you are competant and knowledgable for that potential tasks, "utensil" or "tool".

Purchasing Military equipment is most usually, cheaper for Law Enforcement agencys. It is easier on the budget, benefits the tax payers, and provides an overall savings on "mass purchases" than buying from wholesalers or retailers. I see nothing wrong with government purchase of military equipment, so long as the purchase falls within the scope of the L/E agency. Scope being - a small town of 15,000 people, does L/E really need an armored car, if the crimes in that area are minimal? Does a rural L/E agency in Colorado ; who has no serious crime problmes, or gangs;really need fully auto assault rifles?




Quote = "Notwithstanding this concern, however, Americans should remain mindful bringing military-style training to domestic law enforcement has real consequences. When police officers are dressed like soldiers, armed like soldiers, and trained like soldiers, it's not surprising that they are beginning to act like soldiers. And remember: a soldier's main objective is to kill the enemy."

I do not belive that military style training, if it is correct training, taught by qualified and certified instructors ; has any consequences. "Soldiers" receive good training. Excellent training, so I do not agree that the author of this article , where as I understand , is complaining that police officers act like "soldiers" thorugh military training. Does acting like a "soldier" mean it is a bad thing?

One of the disciplines in the military is, wear and care of the military uniform. In the movie "Patton" ; George C Scott's character = General Patton made the comment ( ?? Paraphrased ) " A blind man can see it in a minute. They don't look like soldeirs, they dont act like soldiers ; why should they expect to perform like soldiers." The reply from his opposing character - General Omar Bradley ( parpaphrased?? ) " Your right George. The discipline around here is pretty poor."

Psychologically : Military training ( look like - act like ) = If you don't look the part, you won't perform the part. If you look like a rag bag ( wrinkled uniform, dirty shoes, unkempt hair/hair style ), you perform like a ragbag. If you dress sharp, look sharp ( shined shoes, Ironed & creased uniform, properly aligned gunbelt, good haircut, body posture ( sit straight up ) - you performance is "Bar None". If you "Look sharp" , you feel better and feel better about yourself.

I agree that some people do not deserve to wear the " Uniform" ( Military / EMS / Fire / L/E ) ; because, in my time in the military and public safety ; I have seen my fair share of " Imposters". People who think they know it all, "Signed up" for excitement.....or to say "Hey, look at what I do". Some even , disheartldly....."For recognition".

My training and education ( about 11 years in the U.S military ), the " Soldiers main objective" is to perform and accomplish the mission; that their commander gives them. One of the tasks may be to kill the enemy, but the main objective is to " Complete the mission, and drive on." Through proper mindset and teamwork, it can be done. I have not read the authors background, but where do they get the right to descibe the military, its objective and missions? Why are they slamming the training of the U.S Military, by degrading it ; saying it is a bad thing for Cops - My intepretation.

Has this guy did NBC ( Nuclear - Biological and Chemical ) training? Has this guy went on a 12 mile ruck sack march, or a good 6 mile run? Has he ever stood in formation for an hour and a half, at the position of attention in 100 degree heat? has he ever disassemebled a machine gun, then put it back together?

Where do our so called " Experts" come from?

MSM ( main stream media ) slamming the U.S Military and Local Public Safety...In a good way that it is not really recognized as demeaning both groups????

FF - Medic !!!
 

ff-medic

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
727
Location
The Appalachians - Next to the tent and campfire.
The trend towards militarization was already well underway by the late 1980s but 911 certainly accelerated it.

"9/11" showed Public Safety agencys that they did not know everything. Islamic terror organizations, studying, watching and waiting ; to benefit from weaknesses and deficiencys of America.

The riots of the 60's and 70's, with the drug wars of the 80's chose L/E to increase training, but not to drastically increase equipment. Policy and procedure changed, improved equipement (EX - shotguns& Ammo, shields )

"9/11" cause Public Safety Agencys to lobby local and federal governments for equipment. Millions up on millions has been allocated since then, costing..again, taxpayers millions for equipement in alot of areas, that will never be used. It sits, depreciating....waiting for an event, where it will only be used once. Government officials handed out money like it was candy...cause it was taxpayer funds. No accountability.

Terrorist most generally commit acts of wanton terror , after research and planning. Where they can do the most amount of damage with the least effort. Alot of people and officials underestimate extremest, simply because they are a described " Different Race" , from a different ethnic and culture background, SO - they must be mroe ignorant than us. Painfully, this is greatly untrue. Islamic people have good paying jobs, college degrees, houses, indoor plumbing, a good social support background, and family guidance...Just like us Americans.

Generally speaking = The first person you underestimate, will the the first person to make you wear a toetag.

Militarization of U.S Law Enforcement officers, with equipment and training is a police addage of meet or exceed the force used. No cop wants to die, they all want to go home to their familys.

As long as it is within their "scope" ( needed equipemnt - for the crimes adn community served ) - I see no problem.

FF - Medic !!!
 

ff-medic

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
727
Location
The Appalachians - Next to the tent and campfire.
*** I am at work, about the only time I get on a computer, sorry for the break in time. ***


--------------------------------------------

My Opinion :

Quote - "To assist them in deploying this new weaponry, police departments have also sought and received extensive military training and tactical instruction. Originally, only the largest of America's big-city police departments maintained S.W.A.T. teams, and they were called upon only when no other peaceful option was available and a truly military-level response was necessary. Today, virtually every police department in the nation has one or more S.W.A.T. teams, the members of whom are often trained by and with United States special operations commandos. Furthermore, with the safety of their officers in mind, these departments now habitually deploy their S.W.A.T. teams for minor operations such as serving warrants. In short, "special" has quietly become "routine."

My opinion, S.W.A.T teams are just that = Special Weapons and Tactics. Teams, either SWAT, ERT ( Emergency Response Teams ) ..or what ever the title or acroymn, is a dedicated force of Law Enforcement officers , additionally trained, and better qualifed though initial and individual testing.

SWAT Teams...and their likeness, use tacitcs outside of routine Law Enforcement. They have different weapons and tactics, and individuals whom perform different jobs and roles, that other routine officers do not do ; Such jobs and roles... as negotiator, sniper, breacher ( doors / windows ). In my opinion, a "true" SWAT team attends classes and training regularily, has regular physical training testing ( running / set ups / pushups..ect..ect ), and is tested regularily, as to be able to keep a spot on the team.

Dedicated SWAT teams train with other local and Federal teams, and maybe receive some education and insight from Military units. Even the 82nd Airborne, and 101st Airborne can teach different ways and methods of rappellling in different tactical scenerios, and Urban Conflict, hand to hand combat, night operations, and basic patrolling. No Law Enforcement person, or one group can possibly know everything...AND there is always room for improvement and possibly change in policy and procedure in how things are done. Things , from the simplest to the most difficult.

"SWAT" is a certification as I see it. A different set of officers, with more and greater training, testing and education than routine patrol officers. Whom thorough continous education, testing and training.....complete difficult task that their fellow officers do not do. It takes a unified team, with good leadership and backing ( support and finances ) to be effective at doing their work.

SWAT Teams are defined as some, as being strictly tactical teams. That does not mean that they are always tactical in their job. They can be diplomatic, they can assist, they can advise, they can train, and they can teach.

Being an experience, knowledgable and adult member of a SWAT team is a privledge, not a right. You have to earn the privledge.

FF - Medic !!!
 
Last edited:

ff-medic

Completely Banned for the Greater Good
Banned
Joined
Oct 12, 2007
Messages
727
Location
The Appalachians - Next to the tent and campfire.
Quote = Soldiers, by contrast, are trained to identify people they encounter as belonging to one of two groups -- the enemy and the non-enemy -- and they often reach this decision while surrounded by a population that considers the soldier an occupying force. Once this identification is made, a soldier's mission is stark and simple: kill the enemy, "try" not to kill the non-enemy. Indeed, the Soldier's Creed declares, "I stand ready to deploy, engage, and destroy the enemies of the United States of America in close combat." This is a far cry from the peace officer's creed that expects its adherents "to protect and serve."

"The point here is not to suggest that police officers in the field should not take advantage of every tactic or piece of equipment that makes them safer as they carry out their often challenging and strenuous duties. Nor do I mean to suggest that a police officer, once trained in military tactics, will now seek to kill civilians. It is far too easy for Monday-morning quarterbacks to unfairly second-guess the way police officers perform their jobs while they are out on the streets waging what must, at times, feel like a war."


---------------------------------------------------

Trained to identify two groups - the enemy and the non enemy. Where did this guy come from, and again ; where is his credientials that he can say such a thing.

Enemy - Non Enemy - Friendlys - Enemy support - Indeginous Personnel..ect..ect. There are rules of engagement on the battle field. There is enemy POW's for a reason. He makes it out like U.S Military personnel are robots, with no ability to think or decide for themselves.

Deploy - engage and destroy the enemy, and Protect and Serve. That does not mean that U.S Forces kill everyone they see, and that does not mean that Police Officers are strictly diplomatic, unable to defend themselves....or a citizen(s) if the time / event / occasion calls for it. My deduction is the author is simply putting words in other peoples mouth.

Police Officers perform their job - feels like war. Even Police Officers are human, and can get burnt out and mentally overwhelmed. They to, like the Military, politicans, CEOS, laborerer, secretary, home makers..need a break.

I agree that the author is deliquent in his knowledge of this article. He is not close to being an expert, and is adding thoughts to others people minds...thoughts he has no need to posess. He is also putting words in the mouth of professionals. Speaking for others irrelevantly, as he cannot possibly know what goes on in another persons minds, nor can he read or intepret thoughts.

And he is "slamming" , degrading, the U.S Military and Police Officers


FF - Medic !!!
 

Ensnared

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Messages
3,050
Location
Waco, Texas
To FF Medic: I appreciate your thoughts and comments on this topic. There is a lot to digest in your comments.
 

rescue161

KE4FHH
Database Admin
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Messages
2,920
Location
Hubert, NC
ROE, EOF, HA, HI, and other combat zone info.

I served 20 years in the Navy and spent most of that time with the Marine Corps. My last deployment was to Iraq, back in 2009. We had strict instructions about ROE (Rules of Engagement). Every time we left the "wire" we were briefed (again) about ROE and were given several laminated cards, one of which contained the ROE info, which included definitions of: LOAC (Law of Armed Conflict), S/D (Self Defense), HA (Hostile Act), HI (Hostile Intent), Proportional Force, and EOF (Escalation of Force).

Needless to say, there are a lot of hoops to jump through before you just pull the trigger. You better be darn sure that the person you are going to kill meets all of the requirements to be killed, otherwise you're in for a stressful debrief and possibly a LONG time in the brig.

Obviously, the guy who said that, "a soldier's mission is stark and simple: kill the enemy, "try" not to kill the non-enemy" is sorely mistaken.
 

Confuzzled

Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2008
Messages
704
"9/11" showed Public Safety agencys that they did not know everything. Islamic terror organizations, studying, watching and waiting ; to benefit from weaknesses and deficiencys of America.

The riots of the 60's and 70's, with the drug wars of the 80's chose L/E to increase training, but not to drastically increase equipment. Policy and procedure changed, improved equipement (EX - shotguns& Ammo, shields )

"9/11" cause Public Safety Agencys to lobby local and federal governments for equipment. Millions up on millions has been allocated since then, costing..again, taxpayers millions for equipement in alot of areas, that will never be used. It sits, depreciating....waiting for an event, where it will only be used once. Government officials handed out money like it was candy...cause it was taxpayer funds. No accountability.
Really, nothing has changed except the dollar$ $pent. We could be hit tomorrow with the same effect and there isn't a thing LE could do about it. Heck, it took five days to find the spent round laying on the White House lawn.

If we don't do something now to de-militarize the Police, we'll all be regretting it in the near future. Rights and liberties are being eroded on a daily basis.
 

Ensnared

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Messages
3,050
Location
Waco, Texas
RFID On Bullet Casings?

Really, nothing has changed except the dollar$ $pent. We could be hit tomorrow with the same effect and there isn't a thing LE could do about it. Heck, it took five days to find the spent round laying on the White House lawn.

If we don't do something now to de-militarize the Police, we'll all be regretting it in the near future. Rights and liberties are being eroded on a daily basis.
Perhaps, they will come up with an RFID for bullet components. With all of this scramble for "Homeland Insecurity" equipment, I sometimes visualize a chimpanzee sitting at the keyboard of a Cray computer.

There is something disturbing about all of this. Reportedly, there is a "constitution-free zone" in the coastal areas of the U.S.

Constitution Free Zone: 4th Amendment Search and Seizure Laws Related to Border Patrol Security
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top