Military Airshows that ban scanners?

[dsnymj]

Yes, but who was the one with the external speaker?
I often question folks with the 'mobile radio carts'. I think that does draw attention. Which is why I _never_ play audio through external (or even internal) speakers.

But that's another area in which our opinions differ slightly... my external speakers will _never_ be playing base (or theme park) ops - that would be a definite "red flag" to the roving security forces and I definitely want to minimize interactions with them where possible - but providing a "re-trans" of the air boss or headliners for those in my party (and within earshot) has actually piqued the interest of several non-radioheads at several air shows and just might have pulled them into the fold.

Had great conversations with people at both Nellis and Miramar last year with folks who weren't "into" radio unless it could be received on the AM/FM unit in their car. I have _never_ been approached at an air show in a negative manner by mil folk or civilians while listening to air comms... unless I count your comment about my speakers at Beale. You'd have really been "questioning" the larger amplified speaker I used to take to El Toro in the early 90's! Recognition of increased security concerns forced me to swap it out for something less threatening.

The 'stuff' I listen to is always played through an earpiece. If folks ask what I'm listening to, my first response at an airshow is to listen to the airplanes. At a theme park it's to keep in touch with family & friends.

But the earpiece does get you profiled on occasion... I'll usually walk into a show these days with the radio tuned to the tower/air boss freq and turned on - it makes it obvious what I'm going to do with the radio(s) in my bag.

You didn't have problems, but others did. I had problems with SP @ Travis. Other folks took their scanners into Travis. I think the key here is that the policy is 'subject to interpretation', and depends on the subject doing the determination.

... and how they present themselves at the gate. My current bag is small and easy to inspect with everything in plain sight. I'm not saying I'd have been able to get it into Travis but they didn't seem to flinch at Beale with my current setup, nor with my previous mesh bag (roughly the same content) at March, Pt.Mugu, Miramar, Luke, Davis-Monthan, or Nellis. Maybe it's my airshow apparel or because I remind them of their dad... who really knows.

But my point or my question wasn't to flaunt the situation in front of people who can deny you entrance. It was simply to raise the question in a way of, do you think they know folks are listening, and do they really care?

The theme park folks definitely know... a certain Florida resort has made it next to impossible to listen to them and their smaller branch in California is likely to at some point. My point about air show monitoring is to make it seem "normal" or even "fun" to all who see you with the radio. I'd guess that many reports of "this guy was listening to our security radios" would more than likely lead to more HT/scanner bans.

Or you can go back to the parking lot. Or beyond the control point and bring out the radios.

I supposeI could. I guess it would depend how many hours I had to drive to get there and whether I'd be hassled again for sitting in my car.

I don't think that anyone denies this. I don't think most 'rational' folks would challenge it. But I think as thinking/sentient beings folks will natually question rules they think are arbitrary.

I didn't have an issue with the 'no-HT' rule at Beale. If I was bringing a 'pre-teen' and an HT was the only way we could keep in touch throughout the show, I might have more of a concern.

Yep... the no-HT rule seemed pretty arbitrary and it wasn't posted on their show site. I think we should (politely) question such policies. I'm also going to continue my attempt to make carrying a scanner into a military air show appear to be as normal as carrying a camera or bottle of sunscreen. Even if I am carrying four radios, an MP3 recorder, a set of amplified speakers and spare batteries for all.

 

[b52hbuff]

But that's another area in which our opinions differ slightly... my external speakers will _never_ be playing base (or theme park) ops - that would be a definite "red flag" to the roving security forces and I definitely want to minimize interactions with them where possible - but providing a "re-trans" of the air boss or headliners for those in my party (and within earshot) has actually piqued the interest of several non-radioheads at several air shows and just might have pulled them into the fold.

I hope you get your cut of the pyramid scheme....

I'm not sure that even retransmitting the headliners is so smart. Below is a reference on the Blue Angel's web site:
http://www.navy.com/about/navylife/onduty/blueangels/faq/#publiclisten
Since all maneuvers are preceded by radio communication broadcasting these radio calls or making the frequencies of their radios publicly available could interfere with pilot communication, thereby jeopardizing safety of flight.

But the earpiece does get you profiled on occasion... I'll usually walk into a show these days with the radio tuned to the tower/air boss freq and turned on - it makes it obvious what I'm going to do with the radio(s) in my bag.

Point taken. If I had a Bluetooth headset or an iPod earbud, then I guess I'd fit right in. It's just not as comfortable as an acoustic tube earpiece.

My belief is that if the radio is small and looks like an FRS, it just blends in with the other hoards of radios in the mix. Noone is going to mistake a Pro-96 for an FRS radio. But some of the smaller radios with shorter antennas really look like FRS units.

The theme park folks definitely know... a certain Florida resort has made it next to impossible to listen to them and their smaller branch in California is likely to at some point. My point about air show monitoring is to make it seem "normal" or even "fun" to all who see you with the radio. I'd guess that many reports of "this guy was listening to our security radios" would more than likely lead to more HT/scanner bans.

The theme park issue is really for a different thread. If they wanted to go 'stealth', there would be other options. OpenSky, LTR passport, P25 encryption. I think that Nextel just fit into their plan of 'outsourcing' and supported a requirement for thousands of users. Even the legacy VUT telephone company setup during the construction of the park has been outsourced. Thier IT is also being outsourced.

There are several questions to be asked of any potential radio user, and we're not going to get answers here. It's just fun to think about. #1. Do they know it is possible to listen? #2. Do they think folks actually are listening? #3. Do they care?

 

[dsnymj]

I hope you get your cut of the pyramid scheme....

I'm not sure that even retransmitting the headliners is so smart. Below is a reference on the Blue Angel's web site:
http://www.navy.com/about/navylife/onduty/blueangels/faq/#publiclisten
Since all maneuvers are preceded by radio communication broadcasting these radio calls or making the frequencies of their radios publicly available could interfere with pilot communication, thereby jeopardizing safety of flight.

Pyramid scheme? I don't even own stock in RS, GRE, or Uniden and I rarely proselytize to get others interested in the radio hobby. I have adjusted my listening habits quite a bit to make them seem less "weird" to the non-believers. I did use "scanning as entertainment" as the subject of a college public speaking course speech about 20 years ago, though, so I guess I've wanted my radio hobby to appear less threatening for a while.

I've read the Blue Angels link and understand their point - they don't share their frequencies with the public in order to prevent the Adam-Henry hobbyist (or other fiend) with access to a transmitter to do the equivalent of a repeater "kerchunker" or "jammer" from interrupting the boss' cadence or ditty. My usage of re-broadcast, however, is via a speaker so I don't think it applies - the engines of an F/A-18 or F-16, combined with thousands of feet of separation, a helmet, and an airplane canopy, tend to prevent the audio from a small speaker in the crowd from interfering with pilot communication.

My belief is that if the radio is small and looks like an FRS, it just blends in with the other hoards of radios in the mix. Noone is going to mistake a Pro-96 for an FRS radio. But some of the smaller radios with shorter antennas really look like FRS units.

But FRS radios and anything with a transmitter - although they didn't prohibit cel phones - was Beale's focus, by my reading of the notice at the security checkpoint. They didn't appear to be worried about receivers at all, other than the grunt asking her superior whether scanners were allowed as she was searching my bag. My Pro-60s and Pro-96 have the same size and shape as an HT, perhaps, but have nothing which looks like a PTT button on the side... glad I didn't take the VR-500 to that show, as it really looks like a pocket amateur HT.

The theme park issue is really for a different thread.

Absolutely true, but it fits into the public paranoia regarding scannists and the less-than-honorable reputation we've grown to know and despise.

There are several questions to be asked of any potential radio user, and we're not going to get answers here. It's just fun to think about. #1. Do they know it is possible to listen? #2. Do they think folks actually are listening? #3. Do they care?

How about "Should they care?" If the answer to number 3 is yes, almost any agency can encrypt, but what reasons - other than lame post-9/11 Homeland Security reasoning - are there for encrypting or even caring? At an air show where portions of the air comms are intentionally emitted from the PA system, why would the rest of the air comms be deemed "sensitive?"

The Blue Angels don't give their freqencies out *not* because they don't want to be listened to - every one of their planes is capable of mil-spec encryption - but to prevent themselves from being the source of information a yo-yo with a transmitter could use to decrease the safety of their performance. You can bet the B-A - and Thunderbirds - have contingency freqs dialed into their comm stacks to handle the situation. If they really "cared" that folks were listening, they'd find a way of preventing us from doing it - they really don't change much from year-to-year, so even the MT yearly guide gets you most of what there is to hear.

 

[b52hbuff]

I've read the Blue Angels link and understand their point - they don't share their frequencies with the public in order to prevent the Adam-Henry hobbyist (or other fiend) with access to a transmitter to do the equivalent of a repeater "kerchunker" or "jammer" from interrupting the boss' cadence or ditty. My usage of re-broadcast, however, is via a speaker so I don't think it applies - the engines of an F/A-18 or F-16, combined with thousands of feet of separation, a helmet, and an airplane canopy, tend to prevent the audio from a small speaker in the crowd from interfering with pilot communication.

But the point is that even though they may realize they can be heard, it is discouraged. 'Broadcasting' the audio over a speaker is a way to get attention, and why risk it? I realize that the demonstration pilots aren't going to hear it, but someone on the ground crew might.

At an air show where portions of the air comms are intentionally emitted from the PA system, why would the rest of the air comms be deemed "sensitive?"

Probably because they want to be in control of when they broadcast audio. I'm sure many folks have listened intently while one of the pilots is trying to diagnose some failure. It doesn't exactly make 'good show'.

The Blue Angels don't give their freqencies out *not* because they don't want to be listened to - every one of their planes is capable of mil-spec encryption - but to prevent themselves from being the source of information a yo-yo with a transmitter could use to decrease the safety of their performance. You can bet the B-A - and Thunderbirds - have contingency freqs dialed into their comm stacks to handle the situation. If they really "cared" that folks were listening, they'd find a way of preventing us from doing it - they really don't change much from year-to-year, so even the MT yearly guide gets you most of what there is to hear.

Interesting points. But I disagree.

Just because something is capable of encryption doesn't mean it does it well. The demonstration flying has much different requirements than flying over a hostile environment. The radio calls need to be issued quick, with clarity, and presumably with some level of 'dynamic range' so pilots can read intonation. Can havequick and other encryption gear meet the needs?

What if your fancy encryption delays transmissions by 0.5 seconds? Or what if it glitches and the transmission is lost or garbled? I'm sure that the cost vs. benefit equation says that the cost (real and potential) of encryption isn't worth the benefit.

As for 'contingency frequencies', I tend to doubt it. I'll bet that the SOP for a com failure is to assume a more 'traditional' spacing and rely on hand signals. Also remember your physics. You'd have to throw a lot of RF up from the ground to overcome a 5 or 10W transmitter literally feet away from the receiver.

 

[dsnymj]

But the point is that even though they may realize they can be heard, it is discouraged.

You'll be removing the freqs from your radio configurations then, correct?

'Broadcasting' the audio over a speaker is a way to get attention, and why risk it? I realize that the demonstration pilots aren't going to hear it, but someone on the ground crew might.

Again, how does it interfere with pilot communication? Their stated goal is pretty plain. I don't remember if there's anything similar in the Thunderbirds docs but they also don't distribute lists, do "know" that we listen (I've discussed ditties and birdstrikes with them), and haven't budged frequency-wise in at least three seasons.

A way to get attention? It's not a megaphone and it's at least partially so I don't have to sit there with ear-muffs on in 90 degree heat while I try to hold conversations with the rest of my party. I've got the same low-profile earpiece and similar "racing" headphones - they're both uncomfortable after a while. It's also easier for the "ground crew" to notice the racing headphones from a much greater distance than the volume at which I "broadcast" the audio via my speakers.

Probably because they want to be in control of when they broadcast audio. I'm sure many folks have listened intently while one of the pilots is trying to diagnose some failure. It doesn't exactly make 'good show'.

Good show? Control? Are you arguing for or against the bans?

Just because something is capable of encryption doesn't mean it does it well. The demonstration flying has much different requirements than flying over a hostile environment. The radio calls need to be issued quick, with clarity, and presumably with some level of 'dynamic range' so pilots can read intonation. Can havequick and other encryption gear meet the needs?

I honestly can't say, having never heard the output of such a rig. I know that reconstituted P25 sounds the same whether encrypted or not. Intonation and (as noted below) delay would tend to rule out usage of digital encryption, at least as we're familiar with the state of the art.

What if your fancy encryption delays transmissions by 0.5 seconds? Or what if it glitches and the transmission is lost or garbled? I'm sure that the cost vs. benefit equation says that the cost (real and potential) of encryption isn't worth the benefit.

Good arguments all, but I can't take credit for any of their encryption gear. You're sidestepping my point - if they really wanted to keep us from listening, there are ways. Preventing scannists from carrying radios into a show isn't a solution - those with robo-radios in their nearby hotel rooms or sitting in their cars are gonna listen in anyway.

As for 'contingency frequencies', I tend to doubt it. I'll bet that the SOP for a com failure is to assume a more 'traditional' spacing and rely on hand signals. Also remember your physics. You'd have to throw a lot of RF up from the ground to overcome a 5 or 10W transmitter literally feet away from the receiver.

That blows a pretty substantial hole in the B-A argument, doesn't it? Ask a team member next time you're at a show - you're quite capable of interviewing military personnel.

 

[b52hbuff]

You'll be removing the freqs from your radio configurations then, correct?

Um no, but I won't be broadcasting scanner audio while at a show. I will be very careful discussing what I may or may not hear to folks at the show. I had two military personel at the show make a comment that the radio was a 'recording device'.

Again, how does it interfere with pilot communication? Their stated goal is pretty plain. I don't remember if there's anything similar in the Thunderbirds docs but they also don't distribute lists, do "know" that we listen (I've discussed ditties and birdstrikes with them), and haven't budged frequency-wise in at least three seasons.

I'm not trying to defend the practice, just trying to rationalize it. Of all the places that you can go scan, does anyone distribute lists? I'm thinking the closest would be NASCAR, but even then I don't think the info comes from _official_ sources.

Good show? Control? Are you arguing for or against the bans?

See above, just trying to rationalize.

Good arguments all, but I can't take credit for any of their encryption gear. You're sidestepping my point - if they really wanted to keep us from listening, there are ways. Preventing scannists from carrying radios into a show isn't a solution - those with robo-radios in their nearby hotel rooms or sitting in their cars are gonna listen in anyway.

I'm not side stepping it. I'm disagreeing that the technology exists. But it is speculation. The only thing we can derive is that the cost vs. benefit isn't there. So if they don't care, then there is no benefit. And no encryption. Or maybe they do care, but the existing technology isn't suitable for their purpose. My point is to point out that they _may_ care, but at this point no technology exists that is safe for their application.

That blows a pretty substantial hole in the B-A argument, doesn't it? Ask a team member next time you're at a show - you're quite capable of interviewing military personnel.

Not really. Someone on the ground could 'spoof' a communication, that wouldn't require a lot of power. The radios aren't always transmitting, so when no performer was transmitting, you wouldn't need a lot of power to be received. Spoofing would be dangerous if it distracted the pilots. However, if there was 'interference', my point was that as soon as a performer keyed up, it would realistically 'burn through' the interference.

Clearly not safe for a demonstration, but adequate to call in the pilots and terminate a performance.

 

[dsnymj]

Um no, but I won't be broadcasting scanner audio while at a show. I will be very careful discussing what I may or may not hear to folks at the show. I had two military personel at the show make a comment that the radio was a 'recording device'.

Did they ask you to turn off a recording device? What was the context for even making the comment?

My camcorder was a recording device... my cel phone can be used as a recording device... my MP3 recorder/player was a recording device... my digital camera records images... I had four legitimate recording devices, carried through the gates in plain sight and inspected by those directed to do so. There were no prohibitions against recording, except for the permanent signs which plainly said "no photography" which were ignored for the duration of the show. I recorded both video and audio, took pictures and baked in the sun. It was a public air show with a radio station broadcasting the festivities... very little to be kept secret, at least in the public areas.

I don't recall ever attempting to hide the fact that I was listening to planes at an air show nor have I ever turned down a speaker (in 15 years of going to up to six shows per year) because somebody in a uniform was approaching. By playing the audio into more than a set of headphones, I didn't have to relate what I'd heard because the neighbors could hear it for themselves via my "broadcast" or their own radios. I don't have to be as careful discussing what I hear in this manner as when monitoring "privately" via headphones and I sincerely doubt I'd ever run into problems doing things this way. If it bothers anybody around me, I'll turn it down or move... unless they've got two radios playing into their ears themselves and then I might just turn it up to spite you... I mean, them.

I'm gonna end the debate here stating that I'm going to continue to listen to planes at shows into which I'm allowed to bring my radios, I'll play the air comms out in the open until told/asked not to by the appropriate authorities, and you will do as you will. I will NOT listen to base operations in the open while on the base as that can only draw negative attention and could be a legitimate basis for banning scanners at future events, and you will continue to listen to what you wish fed directly into your ears.

 

[800crazy1]

had no problem entering the BARNS ANG AIRSHOW in Westfield Ma . ..... put my keys and cell phone and 396t and spare batteries in the tray and was on my way ! however one of the military security personell did hold up my scanner and asked another security person if they were allowing in scanners , and he replied , yep , no problem with scanners. and in i went , and ran into 2 other scanner hobbiest monitoring the show and having a great time , we even swaped some freqs in use at the show.

 

[BMT]

Military Airshows that ban scanners

I have driven all over Ft. Benning,GA,Ft. Bragg,NC and Pope AFB with a mag mount antenna on my pick-up. I have never been questioned about the antenna. I don't even bother to turn the volume down going thru security check point's.

You don't see that many vehicle's on post with antenna's of any type.

BMT

 

[N4UYV_Al]

had no problem entering the BARNS ANG AIRSHOW in Westfield Ma . ..... put my keys and cell phone and 396t and spare batteries in the tray and was on my way ! however one of the military security personell did hold up my scanner and asked another security person if they were allowing in scanners , and he replied , yep , no problem with scanners. and in i went , and ran into 2 other scanner hobbiest monitoring the show and having a great time , we even swaped some freqs in use at the show.

800, I parked my butt right between BA #2 & #3, were u the one about 3 seats from me???....lol...'course, I saw alot of peeps with scanners...
Anywayz, I had no problem getting in either with my 97, they didnt even give it a second look..During the show I started to use my headphones but it seemed like the BA's were constantly changing frequencies on me & then I got too involved to listen to them while video'in & listening to them being re-broadcasted over the loudspeakers....
I did notice one gentleman in a bright red shirt wearing dark sunglasses on the Angels side of the rope (I was in the front row) he was pacing back & forth with his eyes constantly on the crowd till he was challenged by the nice military folks carryin' the automatic weapons..He pulled his I.D. & was told "No problem sir"..If ya bet me on it, I'd swear he had something to do with the federal government but I didnt ask....lol...
Although, Signal Stalker did help me locate the nice Air Force security people....lol

 

[suprpump]

I have three antennas on my car. Two are scanner and I have two scanners and a wt(for county fire) in plane sight and have never had any problems so far with getting on Pope or Bragg even since I retired 3 years ago. But I have never gone to an air show at Pope. But even with a max security condition set on post I've never had any problems. I think its pretty much up to the installation commander as to what is allowed and what isn't at air shows.

 

[steve2004]

Just sounds like some people being anal about this whole 'Homeland Security' BS thing. If they have nothing better to do, maybe they should look for another line of work.

Wow! the 'Homeland Security' are getting A*al... or some of the U.S millitary are.

I am Canadian and I was at a national air show in Canada. walked in with my handeld scanner "in my hand" at the gate I was asked is this a two-way radio? I answered no a scanner. they said: ok.... and walked right in.

what had surprise me is that while watching the show I had some millitary security,
eaves droping on my scanner and one of them actualy asked me to turn it up!

All I have to say is I had a good time.
sorry for the fellow who got is day ruined by some a*nal frustrated drill Sargent !

Cheers

 

[bd18packer]

Mil Air Comm Monitoring

As a 35 year veteran of Public Safety and Military monitoring, I have never once experienced the horror stories some of the folks have written about here. I have been monitoring Mil Air comms since the 80's, and spent 4 years assigned at Nellis AFB, NV while on my Air Force tour. Never once in those 4 years, was I questioned about monitoring Mil Air traffic, or other base comms while on duty or off. I was discreet on duty, and only carried my scanner when I was driving around base, in my dorm room & off base home, or on a delivery to some off base site (yes, I have been to Area 51, many times, and yes, there are no UFO's, aliens, or other wierd stuff there). My experiences with the Thunderbirds are legendary(they are stationed at Nellis you know) and I have been privy to much inside info the public will never see or know about. I have been attending airshows since my teen years, and never miss a Thunderbird or Blue Angels performance when I can drive there. I have run countless hours of video tape for their performances, with audio comms for the show leaders as background on the tapes. Never once in those years did a SP checking bags at the gates, or cars at the entrances ever question my scanners, ham radios, frs/gmrs radios or other electronic equipment on my person or in my car. I have had to turn them on a few times, or explain their use, but never told I couldn't bring them in. My experience has lead me to always ask ahead of times; read the FAQ's for the show on a web site, or call The Public Affairs office for the service/ base hosting the show.
Some air shows are restricted(like the one at the Air Force Academy graduation) but it is viewable from an off base location. Some other air demonstrations maybe closed to the public altogether, and unviewable from a public area, but the comms are there is you know where to look for them. Remember a scanner is a monitoring device, just like an AM/FM radio. If someone questions your possession of it at an airshow, explain it's use to the unenligtened. If a military person asks you to remove it from the show, get their name, unit, and commanding officers name quietly, take your scanner to the car, and write to the base commander, or the unit commander when you get home. Be respectful of the rules, but don't let them bully you into a confrontation. Get the facts, and get it right. Be safe, not sorry.

 

[cristisphoto]

Go to said COMMAND!!!!

WHAt good is it whining on the RR forums..
I say ya' all go to the Commanders etc of whatever base and complain
They DO listen...
And then decide on whatever complaint is given....
They would listen to you guys HELLUVA faster than they would me lol
SO Complain to them ,
I would LOL
I maen if I had your guys pull, Crediblity etc then hells yeah I'd be on the phone THAT day or soon thereafter...

Anyways
Good Grief LOL
Warm Regards,
Crista

 

[wilbilt]

I was not allowed to bring my scanner into the Beale show. I don't think it is a matter of scanners being "banned", but rather confusion among the SP screeners as to what actually is/isn't allowed.

I made no attempt to hide it, and took it off my belt to put it in the bowl with my wallet, keys, etc. The screener saw it and said "No walkie-talkies". I said "It's a scanner, it doesn't transmit". She looked confused at that point and asked a SP standing nearby if it could come in. I looked at him and told him it was only a receiver, but he shook his head. It's a PRO-97, and doesn't look like anything but a scanner, but there was no point in arguing once the decision had been made.

The screener then told me that the policy wasn't very clear about radios, and that they should have been more specific in the newspaper advertisements, etc., about what wasn't allowed. She even apologized.

No big deal, I took it back to the car. When returning to the entry gate, we found out that my nephew has a military ID, so we went through the military line because it was shorter. They glanced through my wife's purse, but that was it. Not even a metal detector there.

I wanted to hear the T-bird audio, so we left early and parked out on Hammonton road to watch/listen to that segment of the show. Not a problem.

I'll bring it again next year and see what happens.

 

[N_Jay]

Many security screening operations use the rule that once a decision is made they stick to it.

It is annoying but cuts down on arguments.

 

[N4UYV_Al]

1. Find and befriend the base commander...
2. Inrtoduce him & get him addicted to scanners...
3. Enjoy listening to the airshow on your scanner...

If it was that easy....lol

 

[KG7JEV]

Which is fine and good. But if you aren't willing to follow the rules, don't expect to get in. AND THEN, don't complain about not getting in. Most rules are in place for a reason. And using the excuse of 'my tax dollars pay for...............' is not valid. There are a lot of things that tax dollars are allocated for that citizens have no control over. Using this excuse doesn't give you the ability to freely break rules. And by the way, I wasn't giving you crap. I was stating a fact.

I'm a USMC vet, and I know a lot of MP's who have a hard on for being in control. Most of them are boots who are tryign to look good for the COG or whoever is around.

 

[jeffrey420]

SAB Air Show!

Went to Scott Air Force Base air show this past weekend, and had no peoblem getting in with a scanner. Had to get my camera bag searched, which also contained my scanner. All he ask me to do was open my cushioned lens case that was next to the scanner. Once he seen it was nothing more than a lens, I was in.

I think a lot goes to just plain common sense.

 

[timmer]

I had mine clipped to my belt with my t-shirt basically covering it. I went to show the man at the security gate and he just waved me in. Had no problems at all.