Milwaukee, WI - Police OpenSky radio failure

[brey1234]

A digital radio system that has cost the Milwaukee Police Department about $17.5 million since 2003 still is not fully operational, and the system's dispatch consoles - which cost a total of $1.9 million and were installed in 2004 - are becoming obsolete and must be replaced by 2012, according to department and city officials.
This week, the system's manufacturer requested an extension until March to try to modify the consoles so they will continue to be compatible with the radios until 2012, when the vendor that services the consoles will no longer provide support for them, according to officials with the Police Department and the radio system's manufacturer.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/milwaukee/74212577.html


(Mod Edit: subject updated. Please observe Forum Sticky rules.)

 

[ButchGone]

Does MA/COMM OpenSky work anywhere? I have never read a single posting or story where an agency was happy with the OpenSky system. Every state that has one has numerous problems. I wonder if this will make EADS more attractive, now that they have successfully built their first P25 trunking system In Cumerberland Co, TN? I also have not heard many complaints about an EF Johnson P25 system either.
BG..

 

[N_Jay]

Yes, there are several working and accepted OpenSky systems.
]Mostly in the Transit and Utility markets.

As for what us wrong in Milwaukee, the newspaper articles are not nearly detailed enough to even guess what the real issue is.

 

[productionguy85]

This is why M/A Comm Sucks. None of there systems work right. I still don't know why Harris bought a company as bad as M/A Comm, but I bet TYCO sure was glad to get rid of it. I just assume stay with Motorola!!!

 

[Forts]

This is why M/A Comm Sucks. None of there systems work right

That's quite a bold statement. I know of many EDACS systems that have been on the air for years and perform like champs, and I'm sure there are many more across the country.

 

[idontknow82]

thats what happens with digital. Boy what a waste of taxpayer money.

 

[ElroyJetson]

Digital is workable if done right. Many Motorola customers are very happy with their Astro and P25 digital systems.

But OpenSky was NEVER designed for public safety use. It was originally developed by AMP Wireless Systems to provide a data via RF backbone specifically for FedEx. In that application it did exactly
as intended, but attempts to turn it into a viable public safety voice and data communications system
have met without remarkable success.

It simply isn't well suited for public safety use. Harris will PROBABLY never sell another OpenSky
system, by choice. I see no reason why they would when their own big push is entirely toward
P25 standards. I think that Harris will not actively seek to sell anything BUT P25 products and
upgrades to P25.

Elroy

 

[N_Jay]

idontknow just doesn't know.
Elroy is probably right, but I learned long ago not to make guesses about the business plans of companies.

 

[tencom]

Digital is workable if done right. Many Motorola customers are very happy with their Astro and P25 digital systems.

But OpenSky was NEVER designed for public safety use. It was originally developed by AMP Wireless Systems to provide a data via RF backbone specifically for FedEx. In that application it did exactly
as intended, but attempts to turn it into a viable public safety voice and data communications system
have met without remarkable success.

It simply isn't well suited for public safety use. Harris will PROBABLY never sell another OpenSky
system, by choice. I see no reason why they would when their own big push is entirely toward
P25 standards. I think that Harris will not actively seek to sell anything BUT P25 products and
upgrades to P25.

Elroy

Tell me why Celluar telephone systems that uses basically the same technolgy that OPEN-SKY employs and don't hear many complaints from celluar users about quality. Digital is digital and the only difference between OPEN-SKY and P25 is in the Modulation method that each uses. if digital itself was the culprit no matter what modulation technique, is used they would have similiar Problems. The other difference between the two modulation methods, is one can be monitored, and the other can't be monitored by the general public, and their lies the crux of why so much negativity towards OPEN-SKY by scanner users, as displayed in this forum..The Milwaukee PD now seems to be using OPEN-SKY, radios exclusively and if their were serious problems with OPEN-SKY, it would have never progressed to this point. Just accept the fact that OPEN-SKY is real.

 

[SCPD]

Tell me why Celluar telephone systems that uses basically the same technolgy that OPEN-SKY employs and don't hear many complaints from celluar users about quality. Digital is digital and the only difference between OPEN-SKY and P25 is in the Modulation method that each uses. if digital itself was the culprit no matter what modulation technique, is used they would have similiar Problems. The other difference between the two modulation methods, is one can be monitored, and the other can't be monitored by the general public, and their lies the crux of why so much negativity towards OPEN-SKY by scanner users, as displayed in this forum..The Milwaukee PD now seems to be using OPEN-SKY, radios exclusively and if their were serious problems with OPEN-SKY, it would have never progressed to this point. Just accept the fact that OPEN-SKY is real.

Do not listen to the person with this user name about CLOUDY-SKY!

 

[SCPD]

Elroy is right. This type of system was never made for public safety. There are other digital trunking system beside P25 that work. Pro-voice that system works and a scanner user can't decode the audio not many people complain because that type of system is works in public safety.
Hopefully Milwaukee bought radios with the option to program P25 systems in it. If they can't get their CLOUDY-SKY system working at least they will be able to use something from this failure. Maybe they can get onto the counties new P25 system, whenever that gets going.
Or maybe a miracle will happen and the system will work, but don't hold you breath.

 

[zz0468]

This is why M/A Comm Sucks. None of there systems work right. I still don't know why Harris bought a company as bad as M/A Comm, but I bet TYCO sure was glad to get rid of it. I just assume stay with Motorola!!!

Having worked on both Motorola and EDACS systems, I have to admit, I liked the EDACS equipment better. Invariably, the complaints against EDACS fall to one of several issues, none of them related to the quality of the product:

1. Perceptions of incompatibility in interoperable situations, i.e. "an EDACS island in a Motorola sea".

2. Poor implementation, usually due to customer interference in the system design process, inadequate funding, or simply a poor specification.

3. Name recognition. Everyone's heard of Motorola. They've been around a long time - they HAVE to be good!

The small hand full of engineers and technicians that I know personally that have similar cross-brand experience share my feelings. I've actually talked to end users who have the perception that Motorola trunking systems are better because Motorola radios can "talk farther and have better coverage" than EDACS radios.

It's hard to counter that sort of warped thinking. So at this point in time, I usually don't bother. :roll:

 

[N_Jay]

Tell me why Celluar telephone systems that uses basically the same technolgy that OPEN-SKY employs and don't hear many complaints from celluar users about quality.

Not since 2002 or so. And even then, I would hardly call IS-136 "basically the same technology" as OpenSky.

Digital is digital and the only difference between OPEN-SKY and P25 is in the Modulation method that each uses.

The Modulation, the channel coding (including error correction coding), the vocoder, the control schema, and usually the overall architecture.
(but other then that you can hardly tell the difference.)

However, I agree with your main point, the the listening community is mostly up in arms because they can't listen.

 

[mkescan]

Hopefully Milwaukee bought radios with the option to program P25 systems in it..

I heard the portables and mobiles are capable of P25 trunking operation.

 

[idontknow82]

idontknow just doesn't know.
Elroy is probably right, but I learned long ago not to make guesses about the business plans of companies.

Hey N_Jay why don't we take this into PM, so it doesn't end up off topic again.

 

[N4DES]

One if the big issues I see with Open-Scam is the inability to simulcast and do receiver voting, vs P25 that does allow for it. All of the sites are cells and if not designed correctly with enough RF overlap the radios don't hand-off correctly and go stupid in the null.

The issues with the audio holes are correct as I have a few municipalities in Palm Beach County that are attempting to deploy this technology and are having the same hand-off and audio hole issues that Harris is attepting to rectify with a firmware deployment in the next 5 weeks or so.

This information was received directly by the implementing municipality's technical contact so I trust it is good information.

 

[SCPD]

However, I agree with your main point, the the listening community is mostly up in arms because they can't listen.

That is NOT why people in Milwaukee are mad. They are up in arms cause the system is six years over due. The city went with this crap even after the county sheriff said they could use the county's system.
How many time is the completion date going to be pushed back with this system?

 

[N_Jay]

That is NOT why people in Milwaukee are mad. They are up in arms cause the system is six years over due. The city went with this crap even after the county sheriff said they could use the county's system.
How many time is the completion date going to be pushed back with this system?

Believe me, I am not defending the system, or the system choice.

But there are examples of bad systems from every vendor. OpenSky seems to get an "enhanced" bad rap here because of the lack of a way to monitor it.

 

[1268]

Believe me, I am not defending the system, or the system choice.

But there are examples of bad systems from every vendor. OpenSky seems to get an "enhanced" bad rap here because of the lack of a way to monitor it.

Bingo !

 

[brey1234]

Pa state bidding

Elroy is right. This type of system was never made for public safety. There are other digital trunking system beside P25 that work. Pro-voice that system works and a scanner user can't decode the audio not many people complain because that type of system is works in public safety.
Hopefully Milwaukee bought radios with the option to program P25 systems in it. If they can't get their CLOUDY-SKY system working at least they will be able to use something from this failure. Maybe they can get onto the counties new P25 system, whenever that gets going.
Or maybe a miracle will happen and the system will work, but don't hold you breath.

When PA was looking for a system to use, the ONLY Open Sky system was Fed Ex (for data) and the second system they identified was the Orange County California Transit system. The thing is that system was not operational at the time, according to a spokesman for OCRTS. When Pa asked for proposals it wanted examples of "working" systems. In California, the radios were not even installed, according to the transit spokesman.