Mission Critical Push To Talk (MCPTT): what do you know?

[ElroyJetson]

Does anybody have any hands-on experience with what Harris' MCPTT functionality is really capable of doing?

All I really know about it is that it is an alternative communications system available in the XL series radios, which can be set up over either LTE or WiFi.

I'd like to discover that it can work over WiFi without having to do any special/expensive licensing for it to work, but we're talking Harris here, they don't like to even let you use their bathroom if you visit their corporate offices, not without a signed support contract. (For using the bathroom, being allowed entrance to the lobby takes a separate contract! )

A newbie's guide to setting up MCPTT systems would be some nice reading material for my bathroom breaks....

I'd like to know how flexible MCPTT is before I speculate about how it can be used, if at all, for more casual applications, you might say....

For example, I could imagine being able to just take two or more properly configured radios and use any open wifi network connected to the general internet as a voice pathway. That'd be the extreme top end of what might be possible. (With no guarantees as to latency, of course.) Or set up your own private, isolated wifi access point and be able to use it for voice comms within its range. (A very limited application which may still fit some usage cases.)

Can it be used exclusively within a wifi network? Or exclusively within an LTE environment? License free, perhaps?

 

[mmckenna]

I played with a couple of radios on a trial from Harris that had LTE turned on and were connected to a BeON server at Harris. Worked well enough that it proved it would fill our needs. I've got a project in the works that will use it to solve in building coverage challenges on a private WiFi network, as well as utilize LTE when outside the coverage area of the traditional LMR system.

I talked to someone else that had used it, and they liked it. They mentioned a University PD that was using the WiFi feature and the officers really liked it.

My understanding is that it only works with the BeON server. The radio requires the BeON feature added. Without that, the only thing the WiFi will do is programming. Add an LTE card, and it becomes the worlds most expensive hotspot.

 

[nikronzo]

Well before you get your hopes up you can forget ever getting MCPTT or BeON on your 185.

MCPTT is as it stands right now the "industry solution" to LMR extension over broadband that isn't supposed to be platform proprietary like smartconnect or beon. I believe that the XL line right now is only supporting MCPTT via LTE with a CCM on the radio using either firstnet or southernlinc. I don't know what L3's timeline for supporting wifi MCPTT is but I haven't heard anything yet. Motorola doesn't have any MCPTT integration right now and it seems like they are sticking to their guns with just SmartConnect. I haven't experienced MCPTT on the XLs yet to compare to how BeON works which alone is a different animal.

 

[Thunderknight]

For example, I could imagine being able to just take two or more properly configured radios and use any open wifi network connected to the general internet as a voice pathway. That'd be the extreme top end of what might be possible. (With no guarantees as to latency, of course.) Or set up your own private, isolated wifi access point and be able to use it for voice comms within its range. (A very limited application which may still fit some usage cases.)

Can it be used exclusively within a wifi network? Or exclusively within an LTE environment? License free, perhaps?

The WiFi SSIDs are programmed into the radio with RPM2...the user does not select from a list of open networks and join one. So if all your schools have a common SSID, etc., then the radio will connect. In theory I suppose the user's cell phone hotspot could be one of those SSIDs.

It can also do LTE (Verizon or FirstNet I believe) in addition to Wi-Fi...but only if you have the LTE enabled model.

But BeON talks back to the BeON server at the radio system core...it's not just two random radios that can talk to each other over Wi-Fi.

There is a "software license" for each radio, and that license is loaded at the BeON server level.

You can also run BeON on a smartphone as an app.

 

[BMDaug]

So my understanding is that BeON and SmartConnect are proprietary, where MCPTT SHOULD be an open standard (or at least more open). BeON and MCPTT are separate feature sets in the radio AFAIK. I know BeON isn’t in my future, but OP makes a good point, that MCPTT may be available to common folk with less financial burden. However, putting two radios on the same network is step one, with an unknown number of additional steps to actually get them to communicate…

-B

 

[ElroyJetson]

MCPTT is an industry standard, not unique to Harris, and thus would not always require BeOn connectivity as Motorola doesn't do BeOn. Neither does anybody BUT Harris.

My concept for MCPTT as a personal convenience is really pretty obvious when you think about it. To be able to use it as a Wifi based bridge into another radio service via another radio that is bridged from Wifi to that service. Imagine being able to use an 800 MHz radio via wifi to bridge into a local 2 meter repeater via a bridged 2M radio. Yes that would be silly but it's a practical application, if it can be done.

Via various bridging technologies and protocols, it's becoming possible to use most any connected device with any other connected service. That kind of communications fusion is where everything is headed. Just as the radio is now a software defined platform, the ability toi bridge any platform to any other via such technologies as MCPTT and ROIP will open up limitless possibilities for communications.

 

[nikronzo]

So you want to use MCPTT (emphasis on Mission Critical) infrastructure to ragchew on a ham repeater??

And while, yes, with modern technology bridging anything to anything is possible, to quote Jurassic Park “Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.”

 

[BMDaug]

You’re effectively talking about a hotspot that doesn’t require RF at all… the hotspot is essentially built into the radio. The issue then is, how does the radio know to use Wi-Fi/LTE instead of RF? If there’s no control channel, how does it know when it’s OOR and needs to rely on public infrastructure? Unless you also implement geofencing in RPM so the radio knows where the coverage is and is not, it gets difficult to reliably implement this tech in a conventional system. Perhaps you could use some sort of voting that incorporates LMR + Wi-Fi + LTE and whichever receives the strongest signal wins?

The big thing to point out here is that MCPTT (which is apparently specified by Kodiak, now a division of MSI, even though MSI has so far refused to implement it… huge red flag…) is Mission Critical PTT OVER FIRSTNET AND VERIZON LTE ONLY… So there is infrastructure… owned by telecoms, likely a zone controlleresque system. So you aren’t rolling your own any time soon…

I gotta say @ElroyJetson when you dream, you dream big… that’s as nicely as I can put it.

-B

 

[ElroyJetson]

I will mention that when setting up MCPTT in RPM2, it specifically requires you to choose between LTE and wifi network usage.

I'm not particularly interested in that specific usage case, to turn an 800 MHz radio into a virtual 2 meter radio. But it's a plausible application, no doubt more complex than simply buying a VHF radio and much cheaper than buying another XL, particularly a 200 with all bands enabled.

So consider a link to any VHF or UHF channel you have an operational need for instead, if the notion of a 2M link offends your sensibilities.

But I'm interested in the basic topology of an MCPTT system before expending any significant energy on real world usage cases and applications. Basics first, applications second.

It's not dreaming, it's asking questions and wanting to know what's possible. This insatiable curiosity thing that has always been part of me since before my earliest memory. It's how I've learned so much about such a broad range of topics.

 

[nikronzo]

speaking pure technicalities, both BeON and Smartconnect are capable of existing as broadband-only systems in their respective radios. They don't need to find a RF site or lack thereof to initiate broadband LMR, they just are merely designed to be functional with a tiered set of instructions inside the subscriber to failover from RF LMR to Broadband LMR.

 

[BMDaug]

speaking pure technicalities, both BeON and Smartconnect are capable of existing as broadband-only systems in their respective radios. They don't need to find a RF site or lack thereof to initiate broadband LMR, they just are merely designed to be functional with a tiered set of instructions inside the subscriber to failover from RF LMR to Broadband LMR.

Absolutely! This is made clear by the ability to use the BeON app on a smartphone. The device doesn’t even contain LMR RF hardware and I would assume that some insane person could build out a zero site vida core system with BeON installed on a bunch of $80 android phones and and create a POC system with great success (and expense).

@ElroyJetson I've been googling…

What is MCPTT over LTE? - RCR Wireless News

What is MCPTT over LTE? Mission-critical push-to-talk over LTE, or MCPTT over LTE, is an LTE feature that was first introduced in Release 13 in 2016 as the Third Generation Partnership Project sought to include LTE features that allowed the technology to better address the needs of first...

www.rcrwireless.com

Also, see attachment! A 199 page pdf which outlines how to implement MCPTT. Have fun!!! Please post cliff notes when you are finished!!!

-B

 

[sbk1982]

Absolutely! This is made clear by the ability to use the BeON app on a smartphone. The device doesn’t even contain LMR RF hardware and I would assume that some insane person could build out a zero site vida core system with BeON installed on a bunch of $80 android phones and and create a POC system with great success (and expense).

This already exists for a worldwide business operation!

 

[BMDaug]

Totally right, and using an LMR trunking core just for this, when so many more appropriate solutions exist would be crazy expensive and rather insane!!!

As I understand it, MCPTT is more like adding a zone controller to a cellular site where most POC solutions are saas with a host located somewhere in a server farm, which is much more cost effective, but not as locally robust for something like disaster relief.

-B

 

[ElroyJetson]

I predicted the APX Next as soon as I saw the first iPhone. I predicted the Radio-Over-IP concept the first time I used a wifi connection.

I predict that eventually some radio manufacturer will include means to use any available signal path (be it Wifi, LTE/cellular, even Bluetooth) to connect from one radio to another, on demand, with no more than the minimum required user intervention. This will involve multiple modes of operation from restricted only to pre-programmed networks all the way to open access to any available wifi access point or LTE equivalent.

We may not see that level of functionality in a public safety radio, but at this point it's just software choices.

As time passes, the radio hardware requirements will become less hardware specific and ever more software driven, with more flexibility in terms of which of a growing number of communications paths can be utilized.

It is hard to envision the entire planet having 100 percent coverage of broadband radio services, but it's not unfair to look at that as an ultimate goal that someone is hoping to achieve.

 

[sbk1982]

I predicted the APX Next as soon as I saw the first iPhone. I predicted the Radio-Over-IP concept the first time I used a wifi connection.

I predict that eventually some radio manufacturer will include means to use any available signal path (be it Wifi, LTE/cellular, even Bluetooth) to connect from one radio to another, on demand, with no more than the minimum required user intervention. This will involve multiple modes of operation from restricted only to pre-programmed networks all the way to open access to any available wifi access point or LTE equivalent.

We may not see that level of functionality in a public safety radio, but at this point it's just software choices.

As time passes, the radio hardware requirements will become less hardware specific and ever more software driven, with more flexibility in terms of which of a growing number of communications paths can be utilized.

It is hard to envision the entire planet having 100 percent coverage of broadband radio services, but it's not unfair to look at that as an ultimate goal that someone is hoping to achieve.

The L3Harris XL 185/200 series radios are already capable of roaming between LMR/LTE/WiFi based on preset network configurations. Being able to utilize any access point in the world without being preset would probably pose huge security issues regarding access to those public or private networks.

 

[ElroyJetson]

Actually I can think of some agencies that are focused on both internal security and external espionage which would find the ability to exploit any accessible network for their own purposes, to be a very useful function.

 

[BMDaug]

As far as being able to access any AP in the world without being preset, that’s exactly how the BeON app for smartphones works… and they are legitimate subscribers to the system with support for talk group selection, encryption, OTAR, etc. If you can have the app on your phone and get on any AP in the world, there’s no reason the radio would be a greater security risk.

But that’s BeON. MCPTT is, at this time, FIRSTNET or Verizon LTE only and even MCPTT’s website admits that the rollout is happening very slowly.

I can honestly see a CCR like the UV5R with integrated hotspot coming available to hobbyists before a commercial or public safety radio supports a protocol that’s freely available and useful to common folk. I mean, think about it… the radio is already cheap and small. A hotspot is also cheap and small. You could literally take the two pieces of hardware as they stand and fit them into a chassis the size of an APX. There’s no software license hurdles or mission critical standards body to deal with, and all you need is a bit of firmware that blends the functionality of the two devices. Boom, a UV-5R with built in Wi-Fi and brandmeister support… Plus it’ll include a flashlight and FM radio!

I wouldn’t buy that product given the rich history of quality design coming from Baofeng, but they are always hastily designing crap with weird features. Could be a hit!!

-B

 

[ElroyJetson]

It will ultimately come down to something as simple as a server that you set up on the internet, with its own VPN, and the radios connect via wifi or LTE via that VPN server. With that, global access would be possible anywhere there is general internet access.

It seems to me that having a dedicated server online would be necessary. I'm hardly an IT guru but even I can see that.

It'd also be nice if radios had ad hoc networking capability, as the military already has with the Harris Falcon III and IV series radios. It's been done before, now it can be done cheaper.

 

[BMDaug]

It will ultimately come down to something as simple as a server that you set up on the internet, with its own VPN, and the radios connect via wifi or LTE via that VPN server. With that, global access would be possible anywhere there is general internet access.

It seems to me that having a dedicated server online would be necessary. I'm hardly an IT guru but even I can see that.

It'd also be nice if radios had ad hoc networking capability, as the military already has with the Harris Falcon III and IV series radios. It's been done before, now it can be done cheaper.

No real need for the VPN, but sure, it would be more private and secure. The use case would dictate this… aside from the VPN, you basically described brandmeister… a server that serves TGs over the internet. That’s why it seems that a CCR with integrated hotspot would likely be available before some commercial/public safety solution becomes widely available to hobbyists.

The adhoc thing is an interesting concept, but I’d ask what the usefulness of this would be over just using the 5/6W RF component of the radio? The range of an adhoc Wi-Fi network created by the radio would be dismal compared to 6W VHF or 5W UHF… adhoc usually assumes no infrastructure, which is what simplex is for and VARA FM for instance can already create an adhoc data “network” via RF simplex and APRS is pretty sweet for a mesh-style network. It has an internet component, but APRS doesn’t require the internet if you have a solid mesh in your area.

Now HF has a lot of adhoc development, with ALE, hopping, encryption for military and non-ham operators and robust one-to-one and one-to-many data modes as well as digital voice.

How do you envision using adhoc via Wi-Fi? I’d say that anything LTE isn’t adhoc since you are backhauled to some sort of broader connection.

-B

 

[ElroyJetson]

I'm just thinking that some radios may have ad hoc capability, separate from wifi or LTE functionality. Range would be limited, of course, but for some applications it's a very sensible capability to have. Such as groups of people on some adventure in the great outdoors. Whether for civilian, or military purposes, business, or pleasure. That's actually worthy of being a separate topic entirely.