Motorola for "mixed use" mobile radio?

[rtc1930]

Hi All,

Looking for feedback on whether i'm crazy for purchasing a (likely used) Motorola XPR or APX mobile radio for my use case or if there are better options I'm not thinking of. If possible, the radio will be for "mixed use" to replace my fire dept issued mobile radio (CDM1250) and as a personal radio for GMRS & Ham to try and avoid installing 3 radio systems in my truck. Before anyone flips out, I recognize the FCC limitations here for radio type but will primarily be using for scanning / listening on ham/gmrs (only occasional emergency TX use). I feel the Motorola gives more configuration options to stay closer to the intent of the law. The primary TX use will be for FD response under its approved use type. Asking for input so as not to put anyone or anything at risk...

Some quick background... I have a ham and a GMRS license but not a typical full blown ham user. I got my ham license purely for emergency use off grid and potential future use. I have a GMRS license for my family since we have an off grid cabin and it's our primary communication means on the property as its outside/spotty cell coverage. I currently have a Yaesu ham radio in my truck but not interested in MARs mod as i do not feel it gives you adequate control for erroneous transmissions and is not robust enough for life safety use.

The fire department use is what complicates this. I have both a department issued hand held (XPR7550) and mobile radio (CDM1250) with their programming but have not yet installed the mobile radio in my vehicle. I'm trying to get by with just the hand held 7550 but don't always hit the repeaters from inside my truck. I have a very new vehicle and not fond of hacking it up or filling it with 3 different dedicated use radios as a total whacker nor do i have the space. The FD pays for a professional install of their radio in your PV but it isn't exactly a "clean custom install" and they will ask for it back if your command position changes, leaving holes behind.

My rural volunteer FD and most mutual aid region is analog only VHF and likely not going to another system anytime soon due to cost. Our fire trucks have XPR5550 radios in them and the 1250s they give out are leftovers from older trucks. I'm considering purchasing my own system (expensive i know) so that i can remote mount the head of a nicer unit for a cleaner install and maintain my own programing (with input and testing from FD coms dealer of course). I like how the motorola enables ease of grouping and RX only so that i can better support the mixed use and scanning. I'm sure other kenwoods and harris do this as well but I'm most familiar with the moto's and the dual band use (vhf for FD & uhf for gmrs) limits my options.

Still need to further vet this with my coms lead on the department but figured i would throw it out there if I'm missing any other pitfalls or headaches before getting too deep. He is aware of my desire and is looking into it as well. Motorola programming tax aside, I'm struggling to follow all the conflicting threads on whether XPR or APX is easier to program and all the potential FW limitations when picking up used ones. I don't currently use digital but prefer to "buy once, cry once" in case it's needed down the road. Additionally, I'm guessing the need for dual band might limit me to APX unit if I'm reading the specs right?

Hopefully I don't get beat up too bad online for my potential rogue solution. Lots of departments have different protocols around radios or more complex installs so I recognize this may sound insane to some and maybe it is...

Thanks in advance!
Bob

 

[mmckenna]

First of all, what is your budget? That'll make the most difference.

Also, talk with your department about getting written approval from the licensee (Needs to be the person whose name is on the FCC license) to add your own privately purchased radios to their radio system. That is an FCC requirement, and having it in writing will cover your butt. The FCC rules clearly say that the licensee (not you) is responsible for proper operation and maintenance of all their radios, so if they want to give you their own radio that is locked down to -only- the frequencies they are licensed for, don't be surprised.

The FCC Type Acceptance issue will be a challenge for GMRS, if you want to toe the line on the FCC rules. Finding a UHF mobile that has part 95 isn't impossible for older radios, but it is getting more and more difficult for newer radios.
No FCC Type Acceptance needed for use on the amateur bands, so no legality issues there.

As for the install, that's always a challenge. Most important thing is to get a properly/permanently installed antenna outside the vehicle. It'll make a huge difference in performance. Getting power for the radio(s) directly off the battery is very important. Be wary of any installer that wants to run a fuse tap or tie into existing wiring. That's a bad plan, and you don't want someone messing with vehicle wiring if it is your own personal truck. It really depends on your comfort level with the installers. Run away, far away, if this is a stereo install shop.

But...
This is totally possible. It really depends on what the budget is.
It can be kind of expensive, or really expensive.

I understand your feelings about Motorola radios, but there are a lot of good options out there that will do what you want, and probably save you a fair amount of money.

Two separate radios, one VHF and one UHF would be an easy approach. There are a lot of suitable radios on the used market, if your budget is tight. Two radios with a small control head may be easier to install than one multiband radio with a larger control head.
A pair of CDM-1250's will do what you want. Remote head kit would easily allow you to install the RF decks behind the seat and the two control heads up front. I actually kind of prefer that over a "one radio does it all" approach. More flexible, in my opinion.

I'd also look closely at what the future plans are for your agency. Consider what other agencies you mutual aid with are planning. Since they have XPR's, is there some idea that they'll go DMR in the future? Is P25 soon to be a need? Or will it only ever be analog?

A pair of XPR's will give you analog and DMR easily enough.
APX will tie you into analog and P25 only
CDM's will only do analog.

The challenge with APX radios is that on the used market, they are really popular and prices are high. Buying direct from Motorola can be a challenge, if you want to go new. They are not an easy company to deal with.

Harris makes some really nice radios that will do analog and P25. There are multiband radios that would cut down on how much equipment you need to install. Used, they'll be less than a used APX due to the brand name sticker on the radio.

If you think you may need DMR and P25 down the road, that pretty much locks you in to the Kenwood radios. That'll let you run analog and any two of the following: P25 (Phase 1 and 2), NXDN, and DMR.

If analog is all you need, I'd recommend looking closely at the following:
Kenwood TK-7180 for VHF and a Kenwood TK-8180 for UHF. Smaller control heads and well proven radios. The high bandsplit/30 watt UHF model also has FCC Part 95 certifications.
-or-
Kenwood NX-700 for VHF and a Kenwood NX-800 for UHF. Yeah, they are NXDN radios, but will do analog just fine. Same chassis as the TK-x180 radios. Small control head, a lot of features, and easy to program.

And as you pointed out, MARS/CAP hacking a ham radio is in no way suitable for public safety use. If human lives depend on your radio working, you need the right equipment, not hobby grade stuff.

—added in edit----

Find out if your agency or the dispatch center you use requires some sort of radio ID. All the above radios will do MDC-1200, but make sure you know what they want and get a radio ID assigned if it is required.

 

[rtc1930]

Thanks for your detailed response and for reading through my lengthy question.

I recognize what I'm looking for is likely not easy or even realistic... I assume I'm not alone though so was curious if others had any success with this holy grail of combined use.

Your points about license use are critical though and am NOT trying to do this outside of the organizations comfort or approval. That alone is probably enough to kill it so maybe that is the dose of reality i needed....

I appreciate your radio recommendations though and will look through them. At a bare minimum running the dual CDM1250s (one owned by FD) might get me as close as I'm going to get to be compliant without an overly cluttered install. I installed my current HAM radio as you described but will have to remove it for the communications company to install the FD issued radio and antenna. They are a reputable dealer / installer so that isn't the issue. Was more that the install is "temporary" and I'll have limited input as to how things are mounted and run.

The digital stuff is still very in the air. If I do anything it will need significantly more vetting but wanted to make sure I ask the right questions and thinking through it before jumping in the deep end. Budget comes down to a value proposition. I'm not entirely new to radios so recognize the cost and I'm willing to spend money for convenience and functionality but there is a point of diminishing returns for sure.

Thanks again!

 

[AI7PM]

I use XPR-5550s in V and U and love them. So, "....my fire dept issued mobile radio..." , work with your radio system manager on this. They already are using 5550s and may be willing to work with you on what you want to do. They may also have policies in place prohibiting what you want to do as it relates to being affiliated with the agency and having non-agency bands, talk groups, and frequencies in the mix. I have known system managers open to extra programming, others an assertive "NO".

 

[mmckenna]

Was more that the install is "temporary" and I'll have limited input as to how things are mounted and run.

This would concern me.
It's your truck. You should have a lot of say in how it gets installed. I can understand the department not wanting to pay for extras, but if they are expecting you to respond in your own vehicle, and they want you to have a radio, I'd want it done right.
And it's not hard to do right. If the company does a good job, then it should be fine.

The digital stuff is still very in the air. If I do anything it will need significantly more vetting but wanted to make sure I ask the right questions and thinking through it before jumping in the deep end. Budget comes down to a value proposition. I'm not entirely new to radios so recognize the cost and I'm willing to spend money for convenience and functionality but there is a point of diminishing returns for sure.

OK, sounds like you are on the right track. The agency radio guy will likely work with you to some extent. The worst they can do is not allow you to add your own frequencies to their radio. That is a legal thing, but if they trust you, it might pass.
Adding a small radio to do whatever the agency radio won't do would be an option.

What kind of truck is it you are running? Some have a lot of room if you know where to look.

 

[rtc1930]

I'm running a GMC Sierra Denali so space isn't necessarily the issue, it's really the lack of a remote head and maintaining the interior integrity. The installer wanted to just mount the whole radio facing up off the passenger side of the console. I'm sure if i pushed for it i could get them to do a remote head kit on their radio and bury the brick.

The personal radio approach was really just trying to kill two birds with the additional channels assuming i would uninstall the ham radio to make room. I never really liked that radio so was looking for an upgrade anyway. The ham radio brick is under the seat and has a small remote head that tucks into the corner where the center console and dash meet. All the brackets are either VHB taped or use existing holes to ensure its reversable if/when i trade in the truck. On the plus side I already have an antenna bracket.

I know I'm being picky and petty but prefer to be conspicuous about my radio nerdiness and FD whacker level when colleagues for my day job or other friends are passengers. Maybe an option is putting something hidden inside the center console but not my favorite.

Thanks for offering insight and options in case the conversation with radio guy is a dead end.

 

[mmckenna]

I've done a few installs in Chevy Silverados. Remote head in the center console with the RF deck under the rear seat works pretty well, and isn't that hard to do.
No way I'd want the radio hung on the passenger side like that. It's a pain for passengers and it's just the tech taking the easy way out.

Remote head kits of CDM-1250/1550's are not hard to find, you can get them for around $80.

I put a VHF mobile inside the center console under the arm rest once, that worked pretty well.


Also, it's really beneficial to put the antenna on the roof. I know drilling in the truck is a concern, but it's really worth it. It won't reduce resale value and it really improves performance. Also, it's much lower profile than mounting off the fender.

 

[jeepsandradios]

I did one of our SAR trucks last summer. 2019 GMC Denali Diesel. Not alot of room but there was a company that makes a plate. I used remote mount XTL (now APX) but here is an older pic from when we were installing. I'd get a remote head kit for a CDM VHF for FD and then find a used CDM UHF for GMRS/Ham stuff and be done. While the APX is great as a line officer and past chief there are times when you need 2 radios anyway so the all in one box isn't always the best.



This was during mockup. I found the plate from a company someone posted here. Biggest challenge was the antenna's as he has a full sunroof. In the end 1/4 wave VHF and UHF fit at the rear of the cab

 

[rtc1930]

That console setup is definitely integrated... Lots of tech buried underneath the console these days though so remote head is the way to go for sure. Between the wifi, wireless charging, and bluetooth in vehicles today I often wonder how radios don't puke on all the EMC noise.

You are right about the antenna. I was willing to make the compromise when i put it on the fender but not ideal. Need to think about moving it. There is a company that make brackets for the third brake light but unfortunately not for the gmc.

 

[GlobalNorth]

Brackets for third brake light installs are okay for a warning light or a scanner, but not for public safety 2 way radio installs.

 

[rtc1930]

Yes its for sure the only way to get a true ground plane... I'm guessing they make factory looking plugs to cap the hole if it's removed for resale?

 

[jeepsandradios]

Just drill the hole and if not needed in the future put a black nmo cap on it. No one will know its there.

 

[mmckenna]

The third brake light mounts provide a lopsided ground plane. I'd recommend not using those.

Have them install the NMO mount at least 19 inches from any edge of the metal roof. Center line should not be an issue, I've done several of them.

They do make plugs, but I'd recommend leaving the NMO mount in place and installing an NMO rain cap. Or, leave the antenna on there. Or, stick an old 800MHz antenna on there and tell the new buyer it gets their cell phone "More G's".

The plugs look worse, in my opinion. Trade in value won't be impacted by an NMO mount.

 

[Project25_MASTR]

Denali's are a bit of a pain. You can actually still option SLE and SLT trim packages with the split bench but almost any convince items you option deletes the bench for a full length console. I've been trying to figure out optioning a new Sierra HD for myself for a few weeks now and honestly want one optioned identically to my existing Sierra but my existing Sierra is a bit of a unicorn as it was the last year you could option a SLE half ton with leather, automatic transfer case, full function mirrors, max tow, etc. My debate right now is how much do I want leather and am I willing to give up the 6th seating position as it's cheaper to order a 1 ton dually as a SLE than it is to order a 3/4 ton as a SLT. I don't need the 1 ton...I'd even consider a single wheel but I really would like to keep leather. No matter what I get it's a compromise (no one honestly builds a truck 100% as I would option one these days).

As far as radios go...I'm either or at this point. I'm in the middle of replacing a Motorola XTL5000 triple stack in my half ton with a V/7/8 VM900 with a Viking control head and UHF 5300 with a lightning control head (upgrade to a VM600 once we get rid of some at the office). I'd like a KCH-20 in a multideck config on the next truck...but if I have to go KCH-21 because of a center console...I'm fine with that in all honesty. Dual antennas and not the single antenna thing I have in my current setup.

 

[jperuta]

I would personally recommend a NX series radio.

 

[rtc1930]

Thanks, need to look harder at the NX series and Kenwood in general. Looks like the latest series has the dual deck/single head option but maybe legacy ones do as well. Total overkill but nice piece of kit and a little more palatable price wise. We use Kenwood low band radios in our trucks for mutual aid still on the legacy low band system so have some familiarity with them as well.

I looked at the Harris radios recommended above which are nice but seems it's harder to find info or availability on them.

Lots of options thanks to you guys. Should be able to have a more productive convo with the radio guy if this goes anywhere. At the very least i have some fall back plans for a killer UHF radio setup separate from FD.

I've been trying to figure out optioning a new Sierra HD

I'm in a similar boat. Might be looking to move to an HD in the next few months. Hence my hesitation around permanent mods. Might put off the radio install till after the vehicle swap as a result.

 

[mmckenna]

Thanks, need to look harder at the NX series and Kenwood in general. Looks like the latest series has the dual deck/single head option but maybe legacy ones do as well. Total overkill but nice piece of kit and a little more palatable price wise. We use Kenwood low band radios in our trucks for mutual aid still on the legacy low band system so have some familiarity with them as well.

The older TK-690/790/890 radios could do dual band and single or dual head configurations. That product line has been off the market for a while. It's also analog only and requires an optional/aftermarket board to support MDC1200 if your agency uses that.
There are a lot of them on the used market for a reasonable price.

The NX-5000 line is a good option. In the Kenwood flavor, you can run up to 3 RF decks, any combination of low band, VHF, UHF and 7/800MHz. They'll do analog and any combination of DMR, NXDN or P25. The single control head is small enough that you can easily tuck it in the dash. There is even an option for a hand held control head, so the only dash space you'd need would be to hang the microphone.

If you go with the EFJohnson version of that radio, you get analog and P25, plus some older analog trunking options. You can run up to 4 RF decks. California Highway Patrol is running these for their vehicles since they can have all 4 bands on one control head.

If you do not need P25, but want DMR, don't overlook the NX-3000 line. Small RF deck and small remote control head. Single band only, but they are nice radios.

I looked at the Harris radios recommended above which are nice but seems it's harder to find info or availability on them.

Expensive, but nice radios. I've got two XL-200P portables and two XL-200M mobiles waiting for me at work. Going to switch our PD over to them. They'll do analog and P25. Portables can do VHF, UHF, 700,800 and 900MHz. Mobiles will do all that plus low band with some required options. Absolutely not a low cost solution and probably overkill for what you need.

Lots of options thanks to you guys. Should be able to have a more productive convo with the radio guy if this goes anywhere. At the very least i have some fall back plans for a killer UHF radio setup separate from FD.

Sounds good. The better you explain your needs, the more likely you'll get help from them.

I'm in a similar boat. Might be looking to move to an HD in the next few months. Hence my hesitation around permanent mods. Might put off the radio install till after the vehicle swap as a result.

I'd wait if you are that close to changing out. The interiors are similar between the half ton and 3/4 and 1 tons, so your ideas can work.

 

[tweiss3]

As mentioned above, you can still find the TK-690/790/890 stuff, cables and the programming. It will be reasonably priced for what you are trying to do, if you can deal with analog only. I have finally just finished acquiring parts for my NX-5k dual deck setup and have a few notes to consider along with the pros mentioned above. First is finding the parts/decks/cables, etc. A K2 UHF deck is like pulling teeth to get, I ended up lucky that the state dealer had an extra one come in with one of their orders. Beyond securing the stuff, the cost is extremely steep compared to the the TK-X90 hardware. There is almost no used market, so finding a deal beyond list price is few and far between.

 

[rtc1930]

Sorry for the Kenwood question on motorola thread but intrigued by the recommendations above... Need to start poking through kenwood threads now.

Are there locks and passcode things i need to worry about buying used with the Kenwoods similar to the motorolas? Or is it easier to take ownership of the used Kenwoods and overwrite codeplug once you purchase / setup SW?

 

[mmckenna]

Are there locks and passcode things i need to worry about buying used with the Kenwoods similar to the motorolas? Or is it easier to take ownership of the used Kenwoods and overwrite codeplug once you purchase / setup SW?

Yes!
Most of the newer Kenwood radios have read, write and read/write password capability. If the radio is locked down, you may not be able to program it.
It is very important to make sure you clarify that with anyone selling used equipment. Make sure you know that the radio isn't password protected.

I lock down all my radios at work.