Motorola new software to defeat trunk tracking scanners

[mesocyclone]

If this is already widely known, my apologies.

A friend with long experience in the public safety comms business reported:

"In the latest Motorola trunking software package (for the system), they have the ability to change the assigned channel numbers to what ever they want, thus defeating the "trunk-tracking" scanners..the number assigned by the system will be unrelated to the actual RF channel...it would take a LOT of effort to map them out - and supposedly, the system can re-configure itself on a regular basis, without user intervention or any need to program the mobiles.."

Does anyone know about this? My understanding is that many public safety agencies intentionally keep their primary communications scannable, using encryption (or cell phones) for confidential data. I don't know if this channel number changing is to defeat scanners without going to encryption (in which case, the obvious question is: why?) or for some other purpose.

 

[N4DES]

It's called channel schuffle and yes it is available in the latest version of CPS. Its is more for protecting the system from rouge radios than from scanner listeners.

Mark

 

[W4KRR]

It's called channel schuffle and yes it is available in the latest version of CPS. Its is more for protecting the system from rouge radios than from scanner listeners.

Mark

If the OP's information is correct, then it seems that this has the potential to render trunk tracking scanners useless. It sounds like this new option has the ability to allow systems to be set up with an LCN type configuration rather than using a nationwide channel numbering plan. But, if this LCN order can be changed at will, or automatically, that would be a big problem for scanners, especially if everyone started using this "Channel Shuffle" option. Or am I reading too much into this?

 

[pfish]

I don't think it will be that big of an issue. The software is probably pretty expensive and they may have to change some hardware on their current systems (along with reprogramming all of their radios and/or buying new radios). I don't think they are ready to put out that much money just for that piece of software. The only way I could see it happening is if they have had alot of problems in the past with rouge radios and/or problems with people with scanners (ie following them around).

 

[N_Jay]

I don't think it will be that big of an issue. The software is probably pretty expensive and they may have to change some hardware on their current systems (along with reprogramming all of their radios and/or buying new radios). I don't think they are ready to put out that much money just for that piece of software. The only way I could see it happening is if they have had alot of problems in the past with rouge radios and/or problems with people with scanners (ie following them around).

Or as it gets added in for free as part of other upgrades.

 

[N4DES]

it could be done as part of re-banding too if the agency wanted to incur the extra expense.

 

[N4DES]

If the OP's information is correct, then it seems that this has the potential to render trunk tracking scanners useless. It sounds like this new option has the ability to allow systems to be set up with an LCN type configuration rather than using a nationwide channel numbering plan. But, if this LCN order can be changed at will, or automatically, that would be a big problem for scanners, especially if everyone started using this "Channel Shuffle" option. Or am I reading too much into this?

No your right on. I'm reviewing it right now as I have to reprogram as part of re-banding.
Still in the investigative stages.

 

[n4voxgill]

One of macom's biggest selling points for provoice has been increased security without the cost of encryption. Looks like motorola may have come up with a competing product.

Motorola may be able to use Ckhannel Shuffle for the dual purpose of handling rebanding.

It will be interesting to see if Channel Shuffle can work in a dual mode to also provide P25 capability for interoperability. Agencies may be able to leave one or more banks in a set mode for interoperability.

Motorola has lost too many big projects to provoice and must find some way to compete. We will see if this is it.

 

[W4KRR]

I don't think it will be that big of an issue. The software is probably pretty expensive and they may have to change some hardware on their current systems (along with reprogramming all of their radios and/or buying new radios). I don't think they are ready to put out that much money just for that piece of software. The only way I could see it happening is if they have had alot of problems in the past with rouge radios and/or problems with people with scanners (ie following them around).

Maybe. But I remember many years ago, when trunking was first starting to be used, mainly by businesses at first. One of the hobby publications at the time basically said scanner users shouldn't be concerned, because they reasoned that most businesses and local governments wouldn't want to spend the extra money for trunked equipment. Well, as we can see now.....WRONG!!!! :lol:

 

[N_Jay]

. . ..

It will be interesting to see if Channel Shuffle can work in a dual mode to also provide P25 capability for interoperability. Agencies may be able to leave one or more banks in a set mode for interoperability.

. . .

Can you clarify what you are saying?

 

[mesocyclone]

The following questions then arise:

Are the channel renumberings going to be distributed to the radios via unencrypted means? If so, scanners could also learn to follow the new distribution. Furthermore, one would expect, since radios don't stay on all the time, that the renumbering distribution would have to be rebroadcast continually. I suspect that this information would be distributed as part of the control channel(s) data stream, but I don't really know the technical details of how trunking control works now. Perhaps someone here already knows.

Another issue is news media. They rely on scanners. If they cannot monitor local events, they are going to make a lot of noise, and go looking under every rock for corruption stories about whoever makes the decisions. In general, they will give a whole lot of trouble to the local governments. The agencies could give to the news media system radios with transmit disabled, but I suspect that wouldn't be satisfactory - reporters in the field would sometimes have to have several radios, and the management of these "ghost" radios would be a problem for the agencies. Furthermore, it would cut out free-lancers.

I think that agencies would usually find it in their best interests to make their systems accessible. But certainly one would very much want to have re-flashable scanners.

Another really annoying thing is that the P-25 vocoders are patented. That a national organization would adopt a patented standard itself hints at some corruption. It gives a free ride to the patent holders, who now have guaranteed demand and can charge a high price! Furthermore, it stops dead, at least in the US, open source software defined radio solutions such as GnuRadio.

 

[N_Jay]

. . Another really annoying thing is that the P-25 vocoders are patented. That a national organization would adopt a patented standard itself hints at some corruption. It gives a free ride to the patent holders, who now have guaranteed demand and can charge a high price! . . . .

Before you jump to such baseless conclusions, I would take a serious look at the standards process under which P-25 was developed.

 

[grem467]

No your right on. I'm reviewing it right now as I have to reprogram as part of re-banding.
Still in the investigative stages.

same here, since we are reprogramming the entire fleet, it would be a GREAT time to implement this.

 

[grem467]

The following questions then arise:

Are the channel renumberings going to be distributed to the radios via unencrypted means? If so, scanners could also learn to follow the new distribution. Furthermore, one would expect, since radios don't stay on all the time, that the renumbering distribution would have to be rebroadcast continually. I suspect that this information would be distributed as part of the control channel(s) data stream, but I don't really know the technical details of how trunking control works now. Perhaps someone here already knows.

Another issue is news media. They rely on scanners. If they cannot monitor local events, they are going to make a lot of noise, and go looking under every rock for corruption stories about whoever makes the decisions. In general, they will give a whole lot of trouble to the local governments. The agencies could give to the news media system radios with transmit disabled, but I suspect that wouldn't be satisfactory - reporters in the field would sometimes have to have several radios, and the management of these "ghost" radios would be a problem for the agencies. Furthermore, it would cut out free-lancers.

I think that agencies would usually find it in their best interests to make their systems accessible. But certainly one would very much want to have re-flashable scanners.

Another really annoying thing is that the P-25 vocoders are patented. That a national organization would adopt a patented standard itself hints at some corruption. It gives a free ride to the patent holders, who now have guaranteed demand and can charge a high price! Furthermore, it stops dead, at least in the US, open source software defined radio solutions such as GnuRadio.

As i understand it, the ONLY thing that would change is the radio would have the channel table in it, so the control channel would still tell the radio to go to a certain channel number, just the radio would have to look it up on the custom table. Scanners would need to know the entire LCN and have a matching table. It would be like listening on LTR with a scanner when you are missing LCN information.

As for the media, whos to say we couldnt give them the requisite LCN information, plus in the case of ENC talkgroups, they might even get issued an RX only radio from the system managers.

 

[crayon]

It would be like listening on LTR with a scanner when you are missing LCN information.

It would appear that it would be more like programming a scanner for an EDACS system.

 

[crayon]

I think that agencies would usually find it in their best interests to make their systems accessible.

HA!

Revisit the fight that media waged @ SPS.

 

[n4voxgill]

A statement was made when macom submitted a bid in northern california for a system that was provice and also could operate P25 that the radio couldn't do this. A test was set up in Phoenix, AZ and a provoice radio did operate on their P25 system. This permits a system to operate in normal provoice mode for daily activities and switch to P25 for interoperability.

The program that motorola has come out with may or may not work with P25. If motorola wants maximum benefit it will let the radio operate in a proprietary mode for daily activities, not scanable, and yet operate in P25 mode for joint agency responses.

We will just have to see the capabilities of the new operating system.

 

[swest90]

I am having a hard time figuring out how this helps against rogue radios or future scanners. If the control channel is sending the LCN and you have the channels (by license if you didnt already know them) it wouldnt be difficult to figure out the order or table. Anyone with basic scripting knoweldge could write up a small app that took the trunker information and then searched the channels until the LCNS were found. Sure scanners would need updated to allow the custom table. Rogue radio users would simply program the custom table as they program the rest of the radio through CPS. If an agency doesnt want to be monitored then its time to (if the system & radios are already capable) change a few options, load some keys and run DES-OFB or greater. Now I can see them adding this feature due to the rebanding, gives the system admins just a bit more control. I havent seen any official documentation about this but if this was indeed to defeat rogue radios and scanner listeners, there must be more to it.

 

[N_Jay]

A statement was made when macom submitted a bid in northern california for a system that was provice and also could operate P25 that the radio couldn't do this. A test was set up in Phoenix, AZ and a provoice radio did operate on their P25 system. This permits a system to operate in normal provoice mode for daily activities and switch to P25 for interoperability.

The program that motorola has come out with may or may not work with P25. If motorola wants maximum benefit it will let the radio operate in a proprietary mode for daily activities, not scanable, and yet operate in P25 mode for joint agency responses.

We will just have to see the capabilities of the new operating system.

M/A-COM field equipment can operate in P-25 mode for interoperability.

A M/A-COM EDACS/ProVoice "SYSTEM" does not support P-25 in any manner.

The test in Phoenix was for FIELD EQUIPMENT.

And I have no idea what any of this has to do with the new channel "shuffle" software for Motorola systems.

 

[Thayne]

What color are the "Rouge" radios?

Most of the rogue radios are black--