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Motorola Radios and DCS Code 325

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martinqc

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I have come across a problem where the NIFOG lists the code of 325 in the valid DCS codes list, but Motorola radios don't seem to allow it to be programmed into it. I am working on XTS and XTL series radios, but can confirm that the issue exists with APX series radios too. I am trying to program our radios to talk to another Law department that uses that DCS code. Is there a way to get the Motorola Radios to accept that DCS code? I have been searching and researching for months. I have even spoken directly to Motorola a few times and one will say it is not possible, while the next says he knows it can be done, but cant ever seem to remember how to do it. Thanks in advance for anything on this. The external LE department changing DCS codes is not an option at this point.
 

madrabbitt

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325 should be a valid code. It may not be on the standardized list, but its valid.

Its on the list of programmable codes for older radios. The tech is gone for the day so I cant tell him to check CPS for the XTS and APX radios, but i'll ask tomorrow.
 

ecps92

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DPL 325 is valid, however I don't see DPL 325 in the NIFOG
Also, the CPS doesnt allow every DPL tone, never noticed that before..

What Page ?

BTW this might help, as it talks about Non Standard DCS/DPL Tones
http://www.onfreq.com/syntorx/dcs.html

I have come across a problem where the NIFOG lists the code of 325 in the valid DCS codes list, but Motorola radios don't seem to allow it to be programmed into it. I am working on XTS and XTL series radios, but can confirm that the issue exists with APX series radios too. I am trying to program our radios to talk to another Law department that uses that DCS code. Is there a way to get the Motorola Radios to accept that DCS code? I have been searching and researching for months. I have even spoken directly to Motorola a few times and one will say it is not possible, while the next says he knows it can be done, but cant ever seem to remember how to do it. Thanks in advance for anything on this. The external LE department changing DCS codes is not an option at this point.
 
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RadioGuy7268

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gesucks

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What is listed in the NIFOG is not the TIA-603 list of standard tones.
CDCSS 325 is not a TIA Standard tone
CTCSS 150.0 is not a TIA Standard tone
 

madrabbitt

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I asked the radio tech. His two suggestions were try the inverted tone (526) and make sure you're in the DPL field, not the NAC field.

He said when he got a chance he'd try it in the APX CPS
 

kayn1n32008

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Motorola does not allow non standard PL/DPL. I bought am MTS-2000, and had it programmed for me, one of the channels I wanted was a clubs hub repeater, it uses DCS 446, which is not a TIA standard DCS code, and as such, I had to pick another frequency pair.


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SCPD

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Typing

Motorola does not allow non standard PL/DPL. I bought am MTS-2000, and had it programmed for me, one of the channels I wanted was a clubs hub repeater, it uses DCS 446, which is not a TIA standard DCS code, and as such, I had to pick another frequency pair
Did you try typing in 446 in the field?
It seems that I have had that a couple times. The DCS code was not in the dropdown list, but I was able to just type it in the field, and was good to go.
 

n1das

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IIRC, 325 may be a code that's not in Motorola's list of 83 standard codes.

Most radios have DCS capability for 104 standard codes. Some manufacturers have implemented a few more codes like 017 and 117. Motorola supposedly only implemented 83 of the 104 standard codes because some of them supposedly don't work as well. You're good to go with essentially all radio manufacturers if the code you're using is one of Moto's 83 standard codes. From Wyandotte's post, it looks like there's a way to enter a non-Moto standard code like 325.

In Moto's TalkAbout GMRS/FRS buble pack radios for example, they advertise "121 codes" consisting of the 38 standard CTCSS/PL tones plus 83 DPL codes for a total of 121 codes. I was thinking if I ever have a problem with unlicensed bubble packers on my GMRS repeater currently on DPL 411, I could switch it to a code that's not one of Moto's 83 standard codes. The only problem with that is it could lock me out of using older Moto radios on the repeater.

Also since Motorola trademarked DPL, if it isn't a Motorola radio, the manufacturer can't call it DPL. DCS and CDCSS seems to be the generic names used by other manufacturers. I still like to refer to it as DPL no matter who made the radio.

Here's a good technical reference for DCS/DPL if you want to understand how DCS/DPL works:
http://www.onfreq.com/syntorx/dcs.html

Good luck.
 
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martinqc

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Additional info...

Things I have tried...

1) I tried the inverted code which is also missing from the list.

2) No 'typed' DCS code is permitted. You have to select from the list. If it can be hand coded, maybe there is an option that has to be enabled to allow that in the CPS?

3) I have tried these two things on both the latest XTS CPS 20.01.00 and APX CPS 13.01.00. If there are newer version, I do not see them on the MOL.

I also spoke with the original company that set up the repeater as well as the code and they told me that it was an attempt to generate revenue for Kenwood radios since they could do them and Motorola wouldn't. I couldn't even pay them to program the channel into one of my radios. The local Authorized Motorola Service provider also cannot enter this DCS code into my radios. Sounds like the DCS/CTCSS scene needs a bit more standardization. The really stupid part to this is the code is being used by a local Fire Department who relies heavily on Interoperability and Mutual Aid since they are a volunteer department. This was a bad call that no one knew to stop before it had gotten too far. The department is scheduled to change the code to something more friendly in a couple of months. If anyone here knows how to put this code into an XTS or APX radio, you may well be doing what so far has been the impossible. Would like to know if there is still a way.
 

kayn1n32008

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Things I have tried...



1) I tried the inverted code which is also missing from the list.



2) No 'typed' DCS code is permitted. You have to select from the list. If it can be hand coded, maybe there is an option that has to be enabled to allow that in the CPS?



3) I have tried these two things on both the latest XTS CPS 20.01.00 and APX CPS 13.01.00. If there are newer version, I do not see them on the MOL.



I also spoke with the original company that set up the repeater as well as the code and they told me that it was an attempt to generate revenue for Kenwood radios since they could do them and Motorola wouldn't. I couldn't even pay them to program the channel into one of my radios. The local Authorized Motorola Service provider also cannot enter this DCS code into my radios. Sounds like the DCS/CTCSS scene needs a bit more standardization. The really stupid part to this is the code is being used by a local Fire Department who relies heavily on Interoperability and Mutual Aid since they are a volunteer department. This was a bad call that no one knew to stop before it had gotten too far. The department is scheduled to change the code to something more friendly in a couple of months. If anyone here knows how to put this code into an XTS or APX radio, you may well be doing what so far has been the impossible. Would like to know if there is still a way.

See post 7 for why the Motorola radios won't take that particular DCS code...There is standardization. Some companies choose to include more than what the standard defines.

If my fuzzy memory serves me right this was due to, back in the day with PL, that the non standard tones were not used due to reducing the potential for falsing using physical reeds. Not sure why they did not include all the potential DPL possibilities


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ElroyJetson

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DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP PROGRAMMING YOUR RADIO. NO.
DCS has 512 theoretical possible codes, but some of them are the same pulse sequence, which just start and stops at different times, and any pulse sequence that is identical to any other with a different start and stop time is functionally equivalent.

These are the "alias" codes. I ran through a bunch of them for testing purposes on a service monitor, and found some codes that have as many as five aliases.

I also found some unique codes that don't appear at all in Motorola's standard DCS list,
which is interesting. You could program up some Kenwood radios, for example, with a DCS code that would make them incompatible with a Motorola radio no matter what Motorola standard DCS codes you tried to program into it.

That's a mess. Standards for DCS codes were never properly set and/or some companies ignored the standards which makes matters worse.
 

RadioGuy7268

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That's a mess. Standards for DCS codes were never properly set and/or some companies ignored the standards which makes matters worse.
Agreed, but some shops make the mess worse by Purposely programming systems with "non-standard" codes with the intention that it will force the customers to buy radios only from them.

I ran across such a situation not long ago, with a guy who set up a local PD on a new VHF repeater, and plugged in a non-standard DPL code. Trouble was, none of the surrounding PD's were able to program the "new" repeater into their existing radios, and interoperability went down the tubes. The local chief was none too happy once he realized what happened, and that his option was to have all his New radios and repeater re-programmed to a standard code that would allow other PD's to reach them. Not exactly a happy customer.
 

gesucks

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"Sounds like the DCS/CTCSS scene needs a bit more standardization."
"Standards for DCS codes were never properly set and/or some companies ignored the standards which makes matters worse"

Standards for CTCSS and CDCSS codes have been around for decades. TIA-603 defines them. Every radio manufacture is part of TIA and wrote the standard.

The goes back to buyer beware. Do not let a manufacture force you down a road by using a non-standard tone. WHY is anyone letting a radio shop pick their tones???? You tell them not they tell you.
 

xmo

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gesucks wrote: "...Standards for CTCSS and CDCSS codes have been around for decades. TIA-603 defines them...."
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Absolutely correct. And - 325 is not on the list of standard codes contained in ANSI-TIA-603D.

325 is one of the codes that has 16 transitions. There are 20 of these codes. Motorola's position has always been that these codes are held in reserve because they have inferior noise, voice, and adjacent code falsing properties.
 

ElroyJetson

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DO NOT ASK ME FOR HELP PROGRAMMING YOUR RADIO. NO.
Agreed, but some shops make the mess worse by Purposely programming systems with "non-standard" codes with the intention that it will force the customers to buy radios only from them.

.

On a couple of occasions I had the same issue to deal with. What I did was program up a radio that took the non-standard code and use the service monitor to run through all other possible codes until it activated the radio, and then compared the working codes to the standard list. I found an alias code on the standard list that was compatible with the non-standard code and made notes on the customer's file indicating which standard code was to be used, and programmed their new radios with that code and all was well.

I never actually encountered a case of anyone using a non-standard code that didn't alias to a standard code. It was possible for that to happen, but fortunately it never actually happened.
 
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