Motorola Turbo UHF Question. Is Does TDMA mean encrypted?

[powderchaser]

I posted a few weeks ago about a new MOT Turbo UHF trunked digital system wondering how to purchase a radio and monitor? The rep stated that the system is NOT capacity plus, but is TDMA Controlled with IP connect. He also mentioned Color coded. Is it likely that it is encrypted? I know that is a feature on Turbo. Does Encryption cost any extra to the customer or is it automatic? IF it is not encrypted I seem to think I might be able to get a Turbo radio and get it to monitor? One of my freinds in Boston mentioned that encryption is almost automatic with these systems?

 

[N_Jay]

I think encryption is a user/tech selected programming option.

I don't know how commonly it is enabled.

 

[fineshot1]

I posted a few weeks ago about a new MOT Turbo UHF trunked digital system wondering how to purchase a radio and monitor? The rep stated that the system is NOT capacity plus, but is TDMA Controlled with IP connect. He also mentioned Color coded. Is it likely that it is encrypted?

TDMA is not encryption but unless you have reliable info whether it is encrypted it is a crap shoot.
You will not know until after you purchase and try. They do have an encryption called "Enhanced
Privacy" and its a ten digit key number which is user programable with the cps software. Even without encryption it will be tough to figure out without knowing the timeslot number and color codes.

I know that is a feature on Turbo. Does Encryption cost any extra to the customer or is it automatic? IF it is not encrypted I seem to think I might be able to get a Turbo radio and get it to monitor? One of my freinds in Boston mentioned that encryption is almost automatic with these systems?

Not sure if its included at no extra cost - ask the moto rep.

 

[powderchaser]

Encryption -More Info and question

I just found out from the Radio Shop that he claims they have 64 Bit enabled and is encrypted! He states Encryption is enabled and that it is 64 something? Does it sound like it indeed is encrypted. IF SO, would you say it would nearly impossible to get a Turbo radio and the software and attempt to figure out the coding over the next year?

 

[N4DES]

IF SO, would you say it would nearly impossible to get a Turbo radio and the software and attempt to figure out the coding over the next year?

Unless this tech gives you the information, then yes I would say that you will be unable to monitor them....time for you to move on to the next system that doesn't use a proprietary codec.

 

[js_scan888]

It sounds like this is starting to drive you crazy. A few things... it's MOTOTRBO (tm) all caps, no "u" in the name. The person you have been talking to is either trying to give you false information, hoping you will get lost in a big snow drift, or doesn't know what he's talking about. Not sure what TDMA has to do with Capacity Plus. It's all TDMA no matter what mode they operate in. I'm familiar with about 12 different MOTOTRBO systems, for schools, hotels, and businesses for maintenance and security. All are in the clear, no encryption. Maybe skiiing and snow is a senitive subject and there is a need for high level encryption. Enchanced Privacy mode is 40 bit, not 64 bit. The only way to know for sure is to post a raw audio sample of the transmission. (discriminator tap, 48000 bps sample rate, mono mode). If you don't know how to do that, maybe someone else from the area can post it. Of course if it is encrypted, you are out of luck.

 

[powderchaser]

To JS Scan888. The only other info I have from the radio shop is that it is NOT CAPACITY PLUS and he mentioned using 64 bit encryption? Is 64K Encryption standard Digital on these systems or is this the one that puts my programming opportunities with a Turbo radio down the drain? I can get a radio on MOTRBO and have someone that could try and hunt down the color codes. IF I got a TRBO radio and the progamming software how long would it take me to figure out providing I have an analog scanner and know when they transmit by the white noise?

 

[MattSR]

How, prey tell do you conclude that MOTOTRBO uses 64-bit encryption when the key length is 10 hex characters? 10 hex chars = 40 bits which to me, makes it seem likely that its an rehashed version of the Rivest RC4 algorithm, much the same as Motorola's entry level ADP crypto for its P25 line of products.

Just some food for thought

 

[powderchaser]

How much for the TRBO software so I can play around with the different color combinations etc? Is this software for the new radios readily available? I am determined to crack the codes or who knows perhaps Uniden will come out with something?

 

[colby4601]

How much for the TRBO software so I can play around with the different color combinations etc? Is this software for the new radios readily available? I am determined to crack the codes or who knows perhaps Uniden will come out with something?

Good luck with that.

 

[r1n10]

How much for the TRBO software so I can play around with the different color combinations etc? Is this software for the new radios readily available? I am determined to crack the codes or who knows perhaps Uniden will come out with something?

You would have to "play around" with one TRILLION possible codes.

Don't know about you, but I probably wouldn't live long enough to accomplish the task.

Check any Motorola dealers site and you will see that the Enhanced Privacy is part of the current radio firmware.

I know there are a few people who are too lazy to do anything,but I'm betting the majority of users will push the few buttons necessary to make all comms go away.......

 

[WayneH]

You would have to "play around" with one TRILLION possible codes.

Encryption only works when you turn it on. So whatever FUD you're attempting to propagate, since you've posted twice about this, is only applicable a minority of the time. And considering there was already voice privacy in place the situation is no different regardless of the support for the "enhanced" version.

 

[r1n10]

ok

Encryption only works when you turn it on. So whatever FUD you're attempting to propagate, since you've posted twice about this, is only applicable a minority of the time. And considering there was already voice privacy in place the situation is no different regardless of the support for the "enhanced" version.

ok......sure......

 

[Packetpeeker]

MOTOTRBO, some radios are hybrids, can be set up as analog or (digital TDMA) on different zones or talkgroups, however in digital TDMA mode you would need to know which timeslot the transmission is in, timeslot 1, or timeslot 2, Secondly you would need to be able to capture this pulsed transmission at precisely the correct time. In other words the voice is converted to ones and zeros and transmitted in approximately 30 milisecond bursts if i remember my training correctly.

Also i do not know of any scanner that is capable of monitoring this format of transmission other that very, very expensive equipment not available to the general public, usually only law enforcement or established radio service techs or companies. To be very honest this TDMA is actually a cellular telephone technology and hard to monitor without special equipment.

A far as encryption, under title 47 of the FCC, intercepting or hacking into an encrypted signal is a federal offense, not to mention if it is 40 bit that is quite a lot of combinations and who is to say that the user is not using 3rd party encryption which i understand can be up to 128bit with a firmware upgrade, so is it really worth trying to listen to??

 

[64larry]

I think encryption is a user/tech selected programming option.

I don't know how commonly it is enabled.

In Bakersfield, where I live, this format is used by a local security company. Looking at the radios (From what I could understand) The encryption is only an option. There currently is no scanning receiver that can decipher these transmission however. Using this mode of operation..the operator has two channels to choose from where they are both on the same frequency. The data channel is also with them. Reason they don't interfere with each other is because they transmit on such a thin spectrum and neither transmission interferes. It's a great mode and much more effecient than P25.
This mode also prevents garbling that is common with most digital formats. Motoburbo also auto corrects much more frequently and is far more intelligible than P25 at further distances. Great technology!

 

[JRayfield]

I'm interested in knowing what you mean by "proprietary codec".

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

Unless this tech gives you the information, then yes I would say that you will be unable to monitor them....time for you to move on to the next system that doesn't use a proprietary codec.

 

[JRayfield]

You are partially correct. The Enhance Encryption in the MOTOTRBO radios is 40 bit and it is based on the ARC4 algorithm. However, here's a quote from the MOTOTRBO System Planner: "Enhanced Privacy uses multiple keys and a random number to ensure that the encryption data is different for each data message and each superframe of a voice message.". So, more is done than just using the ARC4 algorithm, to enhance security. Some people (including one person on this board) have tried to claim that the Enhanced Encryption would be just as easy to 'break' as WEP encryption. The fact that the encryption data is different for each data message and superframe sent, tends to contradict that idea.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

How, prey tell do you conclude that MOTOTRBO uses 64-bit encryption when the key length is 10 hex characters? 10 hex chars = 40 bits which to me, makes it seem likely that its an rehashed version of the Rivest RC4 algorithm, much the same as Motorola's entry level ADP crypto for its P25 line of products.

Just some food for thought

 

[JRayfield]

A MOTOTRBO radio can be programmed so that encryption is on 'full time', no need to 'turn it on'. That can be done on a per-channel basis. So enabling encryption for all communications on a MOTOTRBO system is very easy.

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

Encryption only works when you turn it on. So whatever FUD you're attempting to propagate, since you've posted twice about this, is only applicable a minority of the time. And considering there was already voice privacy in place the situation is no different regardless of the support for the "enhanced" version.

 

[PJH]

In short, unless you have access to a service monitor that supports the MOTOTRBO format, your out of luck in trying to monitor the system. These service monitors start at around $10,000 and go up from there depending on options.

With the new technology these days, radios are more like computers than radios. Its not that simple to monitor anymore.

 

[JRayfield]

Last time I checked, service monitors that can work with MOTOTRBO start at around $16,000 and go up from there (I don't think the $16,000 included MOTOTRBO, either <G>).

John Rayfield, Jr. CETma

In short, unless you have access to a service monitor that supports the MOTOTRBO format, your out of luck in trying to monitor the system. These service monitors start at around $10,000 and go up from there depending on options.

With the new technology these days, radios are more like computers than radios. Its not that simple to monitor anymore.