Motorola Vs EFJ

[KD0NDO]

before everyone has a meltdown about the question that i am about to ask please understand this, i have a scanner and i understand all of the possible legal issues with what i want to do.

is it easier to monitor a full p25 800MHz system (minnesota ARMER) with a Motorola xts2500 / xts5000

or with a EF JOHNSON 51SL 5100 FPP


to be clear i am not asking how to do this just which is better.


thanks,
Martin

 

[62Truck]

You're probably better of asking this question on p25.ca. before you get a actual answer to your question. There will be 50 thousand post saying "don't do it stick to a scanner".

 

[cabletech]

In order to fully follow the user group that you would like follow, it is MUCH easier with a trunking scanner then with a stand alone basic radio, as without the main system key, the radio will not follow the traffic as it does not know what channels to switch to.

A trunking scanner has the on board brains to be able to follow the correct user.

 

[blantonl]

You're probably better of asking this question on p25.ca. before you get a actual answer to your question. There will be 50 thousand post saying "don't do it stick to a scanner".

I concur with this assessment.

 

[VE3RADIO]

In order to fully follow the user group that you would like follow, it is MUCH easier with a trunking scanner then with a stand alone basic radio, as without the main system key, the radio will not follow the traffic as it does not know what channels to switch to.

A trunking scanner has the on board brains to be able to follow the correct user.

That was not the question asked.

To answer the OP question.. both radios will work, but Motorola is easier to program. I myself enjoy EFJ radios for the ability to have FPP and Trunking work together harmoniously.

 

[KD0NDO]

That was not the question asked.

To answer the OP question.. both radios will work, but Motorola is easier to program. I myself enjoy EFJ radios for the ability to have FPP and Trunking work together harmoniously.

thankfully some people can read:roll:

now to the dirty part. do i need the software at all to program an efj to passively monitor a trunking network or can it all be done via keypad. drop me a pm about the process if you could. i am very familiar with how to do it on a motorola but want to know which one to get before spending about 600$

thank you,
Martin

 

[KD0NDO]

You're probably better of asking this question on p25.ca. before you get a actual answer to your question. There will be 50 thousand post saying "don't do it stick to a scanner".

thank you, i would have but their sight is being worked on now.

some times i wonder why people bother to say buy a scanner. they are not going to affect my decision. i already have one. it sucks. if i wanted to buy one would i be asking this question?!

 

[62Truck]

thank you, i would have but their sight is being worked on now.

some times i wonder why people bother to say buy a scanner. they are not going to affect my decision. i already have one. it sucks. if i wanted to buy one would i be asking this question?!

The site is up and running now well on my end it is. Idk either. People have their opinions and have their reasons. Some people get off telling others what to do.

 

[Denverpilot]

some times i wonder why people bother to say buy a scanner. they are not going to affect my decision. i already have one. it sucks. if i wanted to buy one would i be asking this question?!

Maybe they've "been there, done that" and know that your solution to your "sucks" problem, will suck even more, and it doesn't matter at all which radio you buy, brand-wise?

 

[jim202]

thankfully some people can read:roll:

now to the dirty part. do i need the software at all to program an efj to passively monitor a trunking network or can it all be done via keypad. drop me a pm about the process if you could. i am very familiar with how to do it on a motorola but want to know which one to get before spending about 600$

thank you,
Martin

There is a major issue here that you probably don't understand with any commercial radio that is on a P25 trunking system. In order for it to function, the P25 standard requires the radio to affiliate with the system. To affiliate with the radio system, your radio MUST TRANSMIT its information to the systems controller. This means that the radio has to be programmed properly to the trunking system with the correct information like the system ID, WACN, user ID, control channels and the talkgroups you want to belong to.

Changing all this information generally is done with the programming software for the radios. Both the EFJ and Motorola radios require a system key in order to change any radio system trunking parameter.

If you were only talking about a type II trunking system, I would always go for the EFJ radio. You can go into the radio on a type II trunking system and change some of the software settings to force the radio not to affiliate and not transmit. Can't do that with the Motorola radio. There is no software option in the Motorola radio to keep it from transmitting on the trunking system, other than to affiliate only on PTT. However when you go to a P25 trunking system format, all this goes out the window and your radio will affiliate as soon as it hears a valid control channel for the system you want to listen to. Doesn't matter who makes the radio.

Yes there have been some threads on different chat groups on how you can try and get around the affiliation. But you still need to create a valid zone in the radio with all the correct information. That will require a valid system key for both the Motorola and the EFJ radios.

Good luck on your project. Now you may have a little better understanding why everyone says your better off just going with a scanner.

 

[radioman2001]

I think you should read the documentation at p25.ca JIM 202. You don't have to affiliate to scan, and I think the best answer has already been given, any and all trunking radio questions should be asked and answered at p25.ca, (blantonl even agrees) there are too many radio police here, and those that don't want to jeoperadize their incomes by giving answers here. I suspect that eventually RR will go the way of Batlabs due to it's narrow minded thinking and shying away from the reasons why people come here for information in the first place.
Now as to answer the OP's original question, I believe the EFJ system key is much harder to obtain then a Motorola system key, therefore making in more difficult to program an EFJ on a trunked system.

 

[VE3RADIO]

There is a major issue here that you probably don't understand with any commercial radio that is on a P25 trunking system. In order for it to function, the P25 standard requires the radio to affiliate with the system. To affiliate with the radio system, your radio MUST TRANSMIT its information to the systems controller. This means that the radio has to be programmed properly to the trunking system with the correct information like the system ID, WACN, user ID, control channels and the talkgroups you want to belong to.
NOT TRUE, it can be done and is done on a daily basis.

Changing all this information generally is done with the programming software for the radios. Both the EFJ and Motorola radios require a system key in order to change any radio system trunking parameter.

YES THIS IS TRUE BUT .....

If you were only talking about a type II trunking system, I would always go for the EFJ radio. You can go into the radio on a type II trunking system and change some of the software settings to force the radio not to affiliate and not transmit. Can't do that with the Motorola radio. There is no software option in the Motorola radio to keep it from transmitting on the trunking system, other than to affiliate only on PTT. However when you go to a P25 trunking system format, all this goes out the window and your radio will affiliate as soon as it hears a valid control channel for the system you want to listen to. Doesn't matter who makes the radio.

AGAIN NOT TRUE.. I TRULY WONDER HOW MUCH YOU ACTUALLY KNOW ABOUT RADIOS

Yes there have been some threads on different chat groups on how you can try and get around the affiliation. But you still need to create a valid zone in the radio with all the correct information. That will require a valid system key for both the Motorola and the EFJ radios.

TRUE.. BUT WHY IS THIS A PROBLEM?

Good luck on your project. Now you may have a little better understanding why everyone says your better off just going with a scanner.

You basically lied to the guy the entire post.. I seriously doubt you wish him any good luck.

 

[VE3RADIO]

Maybe they've "been there, done that" and know that your solution to your "sucks" problem, will suck even more, and it doesn't matter at all which radio you buy, brand-wise?

I call BS - a real radio is the way to go.

 

[wa8pyr]

is it easier to monitor a full p25 800MHz system (minnesota ARMER) with a Motorola xts2500 / xts5000

or with a EF JOHNSON 51SL 5100 FPP

to be clear i am not asking how to do this just which is better.

Easier, no. Easiest is a scanner, as you can monitor/scan anything you want. The real radios are limited in how many talkgroups/channels you can scan at any one time.

Aside from that, either one will work fine as long as the proper feature set is included in the radio, but keep in mind that they're not Phase II compliant; if ARMER is Phase I only you'll be OK, but if it's dual mode they'll only work if the system is smart enough to recognize when a non-Phase II complaint radio is affiliated with a particular talkgroup. You're out of luck on any talkgroups set up in the system as Phase II only.

 

[wa8pyr]

thankfully some people can read:roll:

now to the dirty part. do i need the software at all to program an efj to passively monitor a trunking network or can it all be done via keypad. drop me a pm about the process if you could. i am very familiar with how to do it on a motorola but want to know which one to get before spending about 600$

Yes, you do need the software to program trunked systems, and yes you do need a system key, and system keys are very tough things to get out of EF Johnson. They won't give them to anybody without system administrator approval.

Best thing to do is investigate whether ARMER has a program whereby you can get a radio set up as a "media" radio (receive only) and proceed from there.

As a system administrator, I personally prefer the EFJ radios for media/outside entity monitoring use, as they allow talkgroups to be set up as receive only; Motorola hasn't made that astonishingly simple leap yet despite repeated requests.

 

[KD0NDO]

thank you for all of your help. i understand that there is a program that i can use to make a system key for a motorola radio. is there somthing like that for an efj radio.

 

[jim202]

You basically lied to the guy the entire post.. I seriously doubt you wish him any good luck.

Well Mr. WZ1 I think your the one that needs to explain yourself.

I work with and program these radios almost every day and have for the last 45 years. Not all that time has been with trunked systems. Have been working on cellular radios system for about 18 years. The cellular systems are where the current public safety radio trunked systems came from. Most my years has been around public safety systems.

If you don't agree with what I have said, then explain where the P25 standards and my explanation differ so that a lay person reading this thread can understand it.

Yup there are ways to bootleg a trunk radio to perform as an expensive scanner, but eventually it will transmit and get caught by the system log. After that, the chances of it being killed or stunned by the radio systems manager are good.

 

[radioman2001]

I think that you need to read the instructions at P-25.ca, the radio in no uncertain terms will NOT transmit when programmed using the instructions to scan a trunked system. System administrators have tried and verified the radio is not seen, some with dismay. I too have been in radio for over 40 years, and you can give your opinions, but that may not be the advice needed.
I wish that Tony B would just put at the head of all forums "If you want to program a radio to monitor a trunking system sticky" and have a link to P-25.ca.as this site ( RR ) gives more wrong information than right about a lot of things not just this.
Back to the OP, I am not aware of a system key generator for EFJ, I leave that to others more familiar with EFJ radios. That by itself would be my reasoning to stick with Motorola for my radio, as I have numerous ones monitoring numerous systems with no problems for years.

 

[Forts]

thank you for all of your help. i understand that there is a program that i can use to make a system key for a motorola radio. is there somthing like that for an efj radio.

No there is not (well, not in the public at least). There is a discussion thread over at P25.ca however where they are trying to understand how the EFJ keys are generated.... so maybe someday? Perhaps.

 

[cabletech]

WZ1---In my other response, I gave a general response about the ablity of following a user on the system.

It takes a series of special codes, called system keys, be able to have the radio change frequency's when the user talks and stay with that user, as in the course of the conversation, the radio may change to differant frequency's several times. The system controler does this and the user never knows.

A scanner has the ablity to follow the user a whole lot easier that a normal commerical trunking radio.

Yes, there are/maybe ways to hack this ablity, but some where along the line, this hacked radio will lose the ablity to stay with the correct user and will now just pick up a single frequency and recieve a portion of everyone on that trunked system.

I, like jim202, have been in communications for over 40 years. I hold a FCC first class, ham radio and I own my own radio shop and have worked at M when the first cell and trunked systems came out. I have also worked at dealers that sold GE, Kenwood, Icom, Tait, MaCom, and johnson.

As jim202 asked, in so many words, what is YOUR backgound?

I have had people bring me commerical radios that wished to just follow a user on a trunked system, and they had figured out how to make it a recieve only radio, but after a few days or weeks, the radio was now only listening to one frequency and EVERYONE because it lost the ablity to follow the user do to lack of the keys needed for the controler.

Get or making system keys, is NOT a easy thing to do, as you need to be able to KNOW what they are.

Most system keys are made up of a minumin of three parts and these come from the trunking system admin.

If you have the correct information, ANY commerical trunking radio will work on ANY trunking system,
this encludes Macom's opensky or EDACS, But not all at the same time.

KDOndo--there are NO radios that have the ablity for key pad programing, they must all be programed by software.