motorolaxts-5000

Status
Not open for further replies.

69956995

Member
Joined
May 20, 2008
Messages
1
Hello, i live in Australia and all our police channels have gone encripted. Can someone tell me will the motorolaxts-5000 be able to pick them up.
 

SAR923

Active Member
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,511
He's in Australia. I have no idea what the law is about listening to encrypted transmissions. That issue aside, you would have to know the exact method of encryption. Voice inversion is easy to defeat. The newest encyption systems operate with system keys that are constantly changed and downloaded to an affiliated radio. That's impossible to defeat by any of us mere mortals.
 

WayneH

Forums Veteran
Super Moderator
Joined
Dec 16, 2000
Messages
7,464
Location
Sitting in an airport somewhere
69956995 said:
Hello, i live in Australia and all our police channels have gone encripted. Can someone tell me will the motorolaxts-5000 be able to pick them up.
Maybe ask in the Australia forum? Did you scroll down far enough to look? I've moved your post to facilitate an answer.
 

richardc63

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
222
Location
Sydney Australia
SAR2401 said:
He's in Australia. I have no idea what the law is about listening to encrypted transmissions. That issue aside, you would have to know the exact method of encryption. Voice inversion is easy to defeat. The newest encyption systems operate with system keys that are constantly changed and downloaded to an affiliated radio. That's impossible to defeat by any of us mere mortals.
The short and sweet answer is no... they use an encryption key (not a system key) that to date is unhackable. As you point out the key is regularly changed over the air (OTAR) to deal with radios that are either stolen or "misplaced".

I doubt there is any law dealing with encryption specifically but the practical challenge makes such a law pretty much unnecessary anyway.

Cheers,


Richard
 

grant

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2001
Messages
324
Location
Sydney, Australia
There is a law in the United States that makes it illegal. However there is no law in Australia that makes it illegal in the extremely unlikely possibility that you break it. For all practical intents the encryption is secure

Grant
 

grant

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2001
Messages
324
Location
Sydney, Australia
I should have added a bit more information.

It is illegal here in Australia to access and use a radio network that you are not authorised to be part of, or have radios in your custody that are part of that network, as a result of unauthorised access (ie stolen equipment etc). For instance, the NSW Police have made it perfectly clear that offenders trying to access their encrypted network by any means will be spending a lengthy time behind bars, courtesy of the NSW Crimes Act (1900). For all intents and purposes, Motorola XTS5000 are not sold in NSW to the public but only to Government users.

Grant
 
Last edited:

richardc63

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
222
Location
Sydney Australia
I should have added a bit more information.

It is illegal here in Australia to access and use a radio network that you are not authorised to be part of, or have radios in your custody that are part of that network, as a result of unauthorised access (ie stolen equipment etc). For instance, the NSW Police have made it perfectly clear that offenders trying to access their encrypted network by any means will be spending a lengthy time behind bars, courtesy of the NSW Crimes Act (1900). For all intents and purposes, Motorola XTS5000 are not sold in NSW to the public but only to Government users.

Grant
Thanks for posting that Grant- and I should add for the benefit of those looking at doing that kind of thing that Ebay and other on line sites are monitored by Police & other NSW government agencies for any "suss" radios. People have received a knock on the door in the past- and I know of at least one case where a person lost their job over selling "suss" radios. It isn't worth it.

Cheers,


Richard
 

grant

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2001
Messages
324
Location
Sydney, Australia
While we are talking about digital networks and encryption here is a brief update on the NSWGRN

The NSW GRN Digital trunking upgrade program seems to have been put back 12mths by a lack of funding in the state budget last week. Despite a record 47.6 billion budget there appears to be no capital funding provison for the ongoing upgrade of the GRN to digital.

http://www.treasury.nsw.gov.au/bp08-09/bp3/2008-09_budget_paper_3

It may have been postphoned given that there has been some discussion at federal and state government level about a national multi-agency trunking network, possibly at 380MHz. It is understood that the Defence Department have advised that they require the full use of the 380Mhz band, so I not sure where the matter is currently at.


http://www.acma.gov.au/webwr/_assets/main/lib310647/irgsh_report.pdf

(Particularly the Executive summary section)

Grant
 
Last edited:

richardc63

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
222
Location
Sydney Australia
While we are talking about digital networks and encryption here is a brief update on the NSWGRN

The NSW GRN Digital trunking upgrade program seems to have been put back 12mths by a lack of funding in the state budget last week. Despite a record 47.6 billion budget there appears to be no capital funding provison for the ongoing upgrade of the GRN to digital.

http://www.treasury.nsw.gov.au/bp08-09/bp3/2008-09_budget_paper_3

It may have been postphoned given that there has been some discussion at federal and state government level about a national multi-agency trunking network, possibly at 380MHz. It is understood that the Defence Department have advised that they require the full use of the 380Mhz band, so I not sure where the matter is currently at.


http://www.acma.gov.au/webwr/_assets/main/lib310647/irgsh_report.pdf

(Particularly the Executive summary section)
Grant
Hi Grant,

There's a lot more to it than just spectrum... but nothing I'm at liberty to share unfortunately. I suspect that analogue will be around for quite a while yet.

I know there are some in the upper echelons talking 380MHz but I see so many practical problems created by going below 400MHz unless all existing 460-480MHz services are moved down as well. I wouldn't hold your breath. Unfortunately some of our pointy headed planners don't live in the real world where multicouplers & antennas have finite bandwidth, and who frankly have never had to deal at a practical level across agencies let alone state borders. When you start intruding on long established fiefdoms you start having problems... I think they would be far better off taking 420-440Mhz and somehow doing a trade with the hams to shut them up. The current use of this spectrum is token at best. My private view only!

Cheers,


Richard
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
65,126
Location
Virginia
You have to remember that bands such as the 420-440Mhz band are not only used by amatuer radio, but are actually also shared witht he millitary.
Trying to take bandwidth from the millitary is like trying to get blood from a stone. Us amatuers ( yes I am a licensed ham ) are lucky that we get to share bandwidth with the millitary. But if they want to use it they get prioroty. As for other state government agencies, they will have little luck taking any bands away that are owned or shared by the millitary.
 

richardc63

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
222
Location
Sydney Australia
You have to remember that bands such as the 420-440Mhz band are not only used by amatuer radio, but are actually also shared witht he millitary.
Trying to take bandwidth from the millitary is like trying to get blood from a stone. Us amatuers ( yes I am a licensed ham ) are lucky that we get to share bandwidth with the millitary. But if they want to use it they get prioroty. As for other state government agencies, they will have little luck taking any bands away that are owned or shared by the millitary.
Dave,

Actually there is very little non-Amateur activity, particularly in the 430-440MHz portion. Believe me I've looked... At 12.5kHz taking even 2 x 2MHz chunks would allow significant expansion of existing government networks. I find it ridiculous that in 2008 public safety would be placed second in priority to preserving at least 10MHz of prime spectrum used by very few. Defence don't REALLY need it- but there has to be something in it for them to vacate. My personal preference would be to give the Hams a chunk of 420-430MHz as primary (with a few small "gaps") and revoke their secondary status in 430-440MHz and reallocate it to land mobile (government) as secondary with defence remaining primary. That's my view...

You can tell I'm not a great fan of 70cms!

Cheers,


Richard
 

grant

Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2001
Messages
324
Location
Sydney, Australia
I am no fan of amateurs hogging a band either or holding others to ransom. If I was in charge of the frequencies I would move the amateurs to 440-450Mhz and let them play there.

Then the 410-440Mhz could be accomodated by GRN type networks, we could upgrade all the equipment to the ASTRO P25 Omnilink with AES encryption setup like Victoria's MMR and make sure that the network is used by all local, state and federal governments (instead of isolated pockets). It might cost a packet to setup but it would be money well spent. And for encryption we may as well go for overkill with AES rather than DES.

I am fairly sure if there was a major incident in Oz, amateur objections wouldn't get a look in. May as well set it up before something happens.

Grant
 
Last edited:

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
65,126
Location
Virginia
Richard and Grant I have to agree. The amatuer 70cm band is a huge waste of good spectrum. And I say this, being that I am a licensed amatuer as well, and when I do use my amatuer radio guess which band I talk on! Yes 70cm! There is a bit of activity on 70cm. I go through and scan it all the time, and once in a while I check to see which repeaters I can access and which are cactive.
Its a band I like, as the more popular 2 meter band tends to upset peoples TVs to much.
But I agree amatuers have way to much bandwidth in this band. The lower part of the band, which is generally reserved for simplex and data use is very dead the majority of the time. 15 years go it was alive and full of AX25 packet data. But being these days dial up internet is 5 times faster, no one bothers now. The government should in my opinion go and take the bottom 10 meg of this band. Its sitting there unused geneally.

As for the millitray use of these bands, well they do use it. With the spread spectrum radio they use, which I have been told can go through several hundred frequencies every 2 seconds I would say they probably use the band more then you know, you would never hear them.
The millitray is one reseason why the government won't get the band. It pretty hard to take away bandwidth the millitary uses. Plus most amatuer bands are standardised acorss the globe, and bound by written treaties and agreements.
So I cannot see this happening at all. If it did you would see amatuers put up a fight, not that I htink they would win. They did not win when the part of the band was used for the Olympics.
But in my opinion go ahead and take it. Gives me somehting else to listen to!
 

richardc63

Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2005
Messages
222
Location
Sydney Australia
I am no fan of amateurs hogging a band either or holding others to ransom. If I was in charge of the frequencies I would move the amateurs to 440-450Mhz and let them play there.

Then the 410-440Mhz could be accomodated by GRN type networks, we could upgrade all the equipment to the ASTRO P25 Omnilink with AES encryption setup like Victoria's MMR and make sure that the network is used by all local, state and federal governments (instead of isolated pockets). It might cost a packet to setup but it would be money well spent. And for encryption we may as well go for overkill with AES rather than DES.

I am fairly sure if there was a major incident in Oz, amateur objections wouldn't get a look in. May as well set it up before something happens.

Grant
Hi Grant,

I guess it comes down to whether the economics of TETRA ever get to the point that the government can afford it. If that happens they are going to need "green" spectrum- which would point to 70cms as Defence have said no to 380-400. They would need 20MHz which would certainly take out most of the band. Alternately we can go 800MHz+... and I can't see that ever being accepted here. If we go APCO25 even two 5MHz chunks would accomodate the initial roll-out, this combined with the existing spectrum between 403-420MHz would handle the traffic.

Will the network ever be fully encrypted? I can't see it because managing encryption keys for most agencies is beyond their resources to handle. Only the Police have got the structure to manage it & even then I sense that it is a major burden for them. A lot of sensitive traffic will move across to other technology, such as MDTs, over time.

Interesting times... I wonder who is going to pay for it.

Cheers,


Richard
 

SCPD

QRT
Joined
Feb 24, 2001
Messages
65,126
Location
Virginia
You would think they would go for 800Mhz, being that there are literally tonnes and tonnes of these systems in the US and other countries, so compatible hardware is not an issue. There are a small number of commercial systems in that band, so I dont know how that would go.
As for the 70cm band they can have 20mhz of that if they want. I'll let them! :) That would make more sense as it means that existing equipment could be utilised.
 

commscanaus

Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2006
Messages
492
Location
Melbourne VK
Could not agree more with the above comments regarding 70cm.

Having 30Mhz of spectrum set aside so a tiny minority can play radio and chat about what they intend to do over the weekend is just ridiculous. Yes I am a licensed ham too- since 1991 when the bands were far more active than now.

There was a small number who voiced dissent when the MMR network ate up 420-430Mhz here in Melbourne- but activity in this part of the spectrum was non exsistent- apart from some repeater linking- which was shifted further up the band. LIPD has been a far greater problem- locking up repeaters with noise and forcing some of them further up the band.

There still should be some spectrum allocation for amateur use- but certainly not huge chunks that get used by such a tiny demographic.

These certainly are interesting times- cellular telephony went digital first- followed by TV, and slowly we see the migration of PMR to digital.

The demand for spectrum will see new allocations open up- and others taken over.

With TETRA soon to become prevalent at 800Mhz (as in Zeon)- it will be interesting to see what other standards are adopted and where they end up being used.

How much longer until the massive patches at 1.2Ghz and above come under scrutiny?

Commscanaus.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top