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MotoTRBO System Design

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alanblinkers

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Hey guys, I'm working on a communication solution for two conventions we run each year. I'm pretty sure at this point I would like to rent all of the equipment, as we only need the system for about 7-10 days per year.

What I am looking for is a 4 talk group system (Operations, Security, Guest Relations, and a Misc. group) and I want to make sure that no talk group is blocked by lack of capacity, so I assume we will need 2 channels (4 voice paths) to accomplish this.

Where I am a little stuck is the dispatch side of things, we will have someone doing dispatch during the show, I was told by my rental vendor that something like the transmit interrupt suite, would only be available to a permanent or self owned system. I was also told that a mobile radio could be setup to interrupt a talk group, however once set that way, it can only interrupt and not function normally.

After reading through the MotoTRBO system planner document, I came up with a work around in my head: Guest relations and Misc. groups don't need to be monitored by dispatch, so if we rent three mobile radios, have one on Operations, one on Security and the third set to all call interrupt across all 4 talk groups, it would allow normal dispatching with the ability to interrupt broadcast across all talk groups in an emergency.

I'm very new to MotoTRBO (I started reading about it yesterday) so my knowledge is quite lacking, but I've been learning a lot. Is this a good solution? Is there a better way to accomplish this?

Thank you in advance.

-Alan
 

N1GTL

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2 repeaters give you 4 time slots. Each group gets its own slot. No capacity plus or anything fancy needed.

Transmit interrupt must be enable in any radio you want to be able to "override". There is a check box on the channel/frequency screen that enables it.

A button can be programmed on supervisor radios that will allow them to interrupt a conversation. You can put a button on all radios but then you may have users interrupting each other playing around so it may be wise to only give select users that ability.

You can also have radios scan selected channels if you want dispatch to monitor all channels. You do not need a special radio programmed to be the "interrupt" radio.

What your looking to do is about as basic as it gets and should be able to be done easily.
 

alanblinkers

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Thanks for the detailed response. So how would the interrupt button work? Press the button and then key up on the talk group? What about broadcasting across all 4 talk groups at the same time, is that possible? And the one thing I forgot to ask about, is there an easy way for the dispatcher to send out an alert tone? Thanks again!

2 repeaters give you 4 time slots. Each group gets its own slot. No capacity plus or anything fancy needed.

Transmit interrupt must be enable in any radio you want to be able to "override". There is a check box on the channel/frequency screen that enables it.

A button can be programmed on supervisor radios that will allow them to interrupt a conversation. You can put a button on all radios but then you may have users interrupting each other playing around so it may be wise to only give select users that ability.

You can also have radios scan selected channels if you want dispatch to monitor all channels. You do not need a special radio programmed to be the "interrupt" radio.

What your looking to do is about as basic as it gets and should be able to be done easily.
 

N1GTL

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Thanks for the detailed response. So how would the interrupt button work? Press the button and then key up on the talk group? What about broadcasting across all 4 talk groups at the same time, is that possible? And the one thing I forgot to ask about, is there an easy way for the dispatcher to send out an alert tone? Thanks again!
You can set one of the buttons for "TX interrupt remote dekey". If there is an ongoing conversation on that channel, it will unkey the transmitting radio. The interrupted radio will sound a beep until the person releases the PTT button.

Because you are not linking the two repeaters together, you are only using the time slots, I don't think you can set up an "ALL CALL" that will talk across all 4 time slots. You can certainly set up an ALL CALL across two time slots in each repeater. I would think you need to run them in a capacity plus mode to get an all call working across both repeaters. You have 2 repeaters with two frequency pairs. Since a radio cannot transmit on two frequencies at the same time, the only way to go across all time slots would be if the repeaters are linked.
 

alanblinkers

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Again, thanks for taking the time.

So that makes sense, I would have an interrupt button that basically clears the talk group and then I can start broadcasting.

I got two quotes for rental systems, the first lists this repeater:
Motorola XPR8400, Digital - MotoTrbo, 3 channel, Capacity Plus trunking,

and the second did not list a model, but lists two repeaters in order to handle the 4 talk groups.

So for the first quote, am I reading that correctly that it should allow 6 talk groups? Would this allow the all call?

And I would need to have them link the second quotes repeaters in order to do all call?

Thanks again.


You can set one of the buttons for "TX interrupt remote dekey". If there is an ongoing conversation on that channel, it will unkey the transmitting radio. The interrupted radio will sound a beep until the person releases the PTT button.

Because you are not linking the two repeaters together, you are only using the time slots, I don't think you can set up an "ALL CALL" that will talk across all 4 time slots. You can certainly set up an ALL CALL across two time slots in each repeater. I would think you need to run them in a capacity plus mode to get an all call working across both repeaters. You have 2 repeaters with two frequency pairs. Since a radio cannot transmit on two frequencies at the same time, the only way to go across all time slots would be if the repeaters are linked.
 

N1GTL

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Again, thanks for taking the time.

So that makes sense, I would have an interrupt button that basically clears the talk group and then I can start broadcasting.

I got two quotes for rental systems, the first lists this repeater:
Motorola XPR8400, Digital - MotoTrbo, 3 channel, Capacity Plus trunking,

and the second did not list a model, but lists two repeaters in order to handle the 4 talk groups.

So for the first quote, am I reading that correctly that it should allow 6 talk groups? Would this allow the all call?

And I would need to have them link the second quotes repeaters in order to do all call?

Thanks again.
One button, programmed on a mobile or portable, will clear the channel, yes.

Your first quote doesn't give enough information for me to answer you. The XPR8400 could be a single repeater, capacity plus and the "3 channels" could be referring to 3 talkgroups being programmed into the radios. That means 2 time slots and a possible "all trunks busy" situation if more than two groups try to use it at the same time.

IF they are giving you three repeaters, capacity plus configured, you will have 6 time slots for 4 talkgroups. Your are paying for one repeater more than you can possible need.

The repeaters must be linked to do an ALL CALL across more than two time slots, yes.
 

alanblinkers

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Ok that makes sense, because I was a little puzzled by the 3 channel remark, this is definitely a price quote for one repeater as it's only $127 for the rental period. So most likely, as you said, this would result in a busy issue.

Do the Hytera repeaters actually handle 16 channels on one repeater? It seems odd that Moto units can only handle one, but they can handle 16.

Thanks for everything.

One button, programmed on a mobile or portable, will clear the channel, yes.

Your first quote doesn't give enough information for me to answer you. The XPR8400 could be a single repeater, capacity plus and the "3 channels" could be referring to 3 talkgroups being programmed into the radios. That means 2 time slots and a possible "all trunks busy" situation if more than two groups try to use it at the same time.

IF they are giving you three repeaters, capacity plus configured, you will have 6 time slots for 4 talkgroups. Your are paying for one repeater more than you can possible need.

The repeaters must be linked to do an ALL CALL across more than two time slots, yes.
 

WA0CBW

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What they mean is that you can program in 16 channels but you can only use 1 at a time. The Motorola will also handle 16 channels but again only one at a time. Also remember that if you use a duplexer it is tuned to a single frequency and maybe can be used on more than only one or two close frequencies with some degradation.
BB
 

TampaTyron

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As someone who designs, deploys, and has to implement these types of solutions... I would strongly recommend a Mototrbo Capacity Plus system. If you MUST have all groups able to key up simultaneously, then make it a 2 repeater system. The ALL CALL feature of Cap Plus is nice and will interrupt everyone who is not transmitting at that instant. We use it here in Tampa for very large events involving 100,000+ people. There reaches an interesting point during large events where the cell sites start to fold under the demand of that many users. This is where radio really shines. Make sure to make your codeplug/user interface as idiot resistant as possible. TT
 

alanblinkers

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What they mean is that you can program in 16 channels but you can only use 1 at a time. The Motorola will also handle 16 channels but again only one at a time. Also remember that if you use a duplexer it is tuned to a single frequency and maybe can be used on more than only one or two close frequencies with some degradation.
BB
Ok that makes sense, I didn't understand how it could be possible for Moto to be so far behind. Thanks.


As someone who designs, deploys, and has to implement these types of solutions... I would strongly recommend a Mototrbo Capacity Plus system. If you MUST have all groups able to key up simultaneously, then make it a 2 repeater system. The ALL CALL feature of Cap Plus is nice and will interrupt everyone who is not transmitting at that instant. We use it here in Tampa for very large events involving 100,000+ people. There reaches an interesting point during large events where the cell sites start to fold under the demand of that many users. This is where radio really shines. Make sure to make your codeplug/user interface as idiot resistant as possible. TT
Can you tell me more about the setup for that event? How many repeaters/talkgroups do you run? What is your dispatch setup? Our event is around 40,000 people. Thanks,
 

TampaTyron

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That specific event is a mix of LTR, Capacity Plus, and conventional analog/TRBO. We break the user groups into different radio systems because of existing infrastructure/budgets/etc. Also, if one group initiates ALL CALL on one system, that event doesn't need to be transmitted to completely different user groups. Dispatching is a mix of portables in chargers with speakers mics, base radios, tone remotes, and a few small 4 and 6 channel consoles (MIP5000 and Telex C-Soft). Setup and teardown end up being a pain, but that is why I make the medium size bucks! We have not invested in any larger formal sort of dispatching capability due to demand. Most groups simply hand other group/agency a portable and say "call us on X channel if you need us." In addition, the radio users are either volunteers or people making minimum wage, which makes the console learning curve a little steep. TT
 

TampaTyron

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Adding approx equipment loadout from memory:
-MIP5000 4ch console
-Telex 6ch console
-approx 10 CPI single channel tone remotes
-less than 12 base radios (mobile with power supply and base mic-mix of LTR and TRBO)
-2ea 3 channel UHF LTR systems
-1 6 repeater (12 slot Capacity Plus system)
-8 analog repeaters
-6-12 Mototrbo repeaters (some linked via IPSC and temporary point-to-point microwave/LTE modem)
-approx 1000 rental radios (cp185, vertex 231, cp200, pr400, kenwood 31XX, XPR3500, XPR6550, XPR7550, SL7550, .....you get the idea)
 

alanblinkers

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Adding approx equipment loadout from memory:
-MIP5000 4ch console
-Telex 6ch console
-approx 10 CPI single channel tone remotes
-less than 12 base radios (mobile with power supply and base mic-mix of LTR and TRBO)
-2ea 3 channel UHF LTR systems
-1 6 repeater (12 slot Capacity Plus system)
-8 analog repeaters
-6-12 Mototrbo repeaters (some linked via IPSC and temporary point-to-point microwave/LTE modem)
-approx 1000 rental radios (cp185, vertex 231, cp200, pr400, kenwood 31XX, XPR3500, XPR6550, XPR7550, SL7550, .....you get the idea)
That's quite the setup. Seems like a lot to manage. How many dispatchers do you have?

I'm a little confused from the rental quotes I'm getting. One place is in NY, so how does their FCC frequency license allow them to operate the radios anywhere? From what I'm seeing on the FCC website, it appears that the frequencies need to be tied to a specific location. What am I missing?
 

TampaTyron

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No real dispatchers. Just people who get a 15-30 minute class on how to work the consoles. They also get my cell phone number and access to the radio tech channel/talkgroup to ask for assistance. The frequencies we use for this event are fixed licenses in our name and other we lease for the event from other radio shops. Our rental department uses MO-T, FB2-T, and FB6-T licenses which are MO, FB2, and FB6 FCC licenses with a T for Temporary added on. TT
 
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