Multi county programing

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miked9372

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So I want to listen to Hennepin, Anoka, Ramsey, Dakota county fire groups. I noticed when say im in Hennepin Co I dont pick up ramsey Co, I currently have a system group for each Co. example Hennepin is quick key 2, Anoka quick key 3 ect. for each system should i only but the Co control freq? say Anoka should i only put 853.3875? currently I have Anoka 853.3875 Henn E 852.3625 Henn W 852.6125 Minn N 852.0375 Ramsey 852.0875 so when I'm driving if different co i want to pick up. or will Ramsey co 852.0875 pick up even if I'm way away in elk river so to say? Currently have 996xt and 996p2 and unication g5 that picks up all transmission that my scanners wont pick up for some reason no matter what city and Co im in.
 

jason_58201

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Not sure if this is a quick key issue for you, or a system issue for you or if it's an ARMER issue for you. I don't know much about monitoring systems in the metro area, but i'll just give you my experience of monitoring where I live up here in NW MN. Around here, the towers that TG's are broadcast from are generally setup based on what the local talkgroup is. Most of our FD's all share common county fire TG's and can be monitored on towers within the county and maybe the towers closest to the county in the adjoining counties. Sheriff departments can generally be heard in adjoining counties. PD's generally are only heard on the closest tower to their respective area. State Patrol and other state agencies are repeated on every tower within their district so I often hear state patrol traffic from 100 miles east of me on my local ARMER tower. I know there are a lot of simulcast towers in the metro area, and that many scanners do not monitor simulcast systems very well. That may be part of your issue. Just guessing, but perhaps in order for you to hear a Ramsey co fire tg you have to be locked onto the Ramsey Co twr. If you're in St. Paul and you want to hear something in Anoka, you're going to have to be locked onto the Anoka Co twrs. I could be mistaken. But that is a logical guess.
 

miked9372

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That is what I'm thinking to that's its a simulcast issue what would be the best way to avoid this issue?
 

jason_58201

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Honestly I don't know. There are scanners out there that handle simulcast better than others. The closest simulcast sites I have around me are 75 miles away in Fargo and Cass Co (yes the the largest city in ND and it's County use ARMER) and my 436hp hasn't run into any problems yet. I have heard the SDS series handles simulcast very well.
 

ofd8001

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Probably simulcast issue. 996 scanners are not good at decoding simulcast transmissions, but the Unication is really good. You are probably receiving signal, but the scanner is having difficulty decoding that signal into something intelligent.

When I visit family in the twin cities, here is how my scanners are programmed (my emphasis is on fire "stuff"):

System - MN ARMER
Department 1 - Hennepin East (site)
Department 2 - Hennepin West (site)
Department 3 - Minneapolis N/S (site)
Department 4 - Minneapolis City Center (site)
Department 5 - Ramsey (site)
Department 6 - Anoka (site)
Department 7 - Dakota (site)
Department 8 - All Fire Talkgroups combined into one

I'm using SDS scanners, so their term is "Department" for both sites and Groups. You would have to adjust accordingly for the 996s. Also I'd probably use just the primary and alternate control channels for each site, rather than all the frequencies. You are limited in memory more so than the SDS models.

Without going into a complicated explanation, the ARMER system is designed so that sites cover a given area, modest in size. For example, the Ramsey site would cover just Ramsey and its signal would not be received around Lake Calhoun or whatever its called now. (If units from St. Paul go into Minneapolis, they are allowed to use the Minneapolis site, like cell tower roaming.)

All that said, the ARMER system is as complex as they come and the metro area is the most complicated of the whole state. Once you get the hang of that, you'll be able to deal with anything that comes your way.
 

miked9372

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so if I want to hear Ramsey by lake Calhoun should I add the Minneapolis site and vise versa?
 

ryolsen8

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so if I want to hear Ramsey by lake Calhoun should I add the Minneapolis site and vise versa?

You surly can add the Minneapolis site, however you most likely won't hear much radio traffic, as the Ramsey Talkgroups are primarily carried on the Ramsey site.
 

miked9372

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so would it be best as others said you just program the control and alternate channels then? what about the other freq look at Hennepin East alone there is close to 15 other freq would this be worth putting in or just stay with the control. also what are the non control channels why is there so many is the primary is the main one
 

AAFC

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I listen to Ramsey County while physically located down in Bloomington and I can pickup the Ramsey site on my Unication just fine. A friend of mine tries to listen to Ramsey County while physically located even further south in Apple Valley. The Ramsey site is spotty on his Unication that far south. If you're by Lake Calhoun, you should be able to pickup the Ramsey site no problem..... in my opinion anyway.
 

miked9372

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I listen to Ramsey County while physically located down in Bloomington and I can pickup the Ramsey site on my Unication just fine. A friend of mine tries to listen to Ramsey County while physically located even further south in Apple Valley. The Ramsey site is spotty on his Unication that far south. If you're by Lake Calhoun, you should be able to pickup the Ramsey site no problem..... in my opinion anyway.
Really wish they would make a base Unication scanner!
 

ofd8001

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so would it be best as others said you just program the control and alternate channels then? what about the other freq look at Hennepin East alone there is close to 15 other freq would this be worth putting in or just stay with the control. also what are the non control channels why is there so many is the primary is the main one

There may be 20 frequencies for a given site. One frequency is the primary control channel and two or three others may be alternate control channels. (Sometimes, control channels are rotated for technical reasons). Then the balance of the frequencies are voice frequencies where the conversations occur. So that 20 frequency site can have 19 different conversations (Phase I) or 38 (Phase 2) at one time. (If there is a request for a 20th conversation, the user gets a signal (bonk) that tells them to wait until a frequency opens up for the desired conversation.)

Scanners will work with just control channel programming. Some scanner folks program all frequencies just in case one of the supposed voice channels only, gets pressed into service as a control channel. Very, very rare, but anything is possible.

One thing to bear in mind with Unication. Their original intention was to be a less costly receiver for responders compared to a "regular radio". Folks were seeing they worked better with simulcast systems, so they ended up being used as general scanners, even though that isn't their real intention.
 

miked9372

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There may be 20 frequencies for a given site. One frequency is the primary control channel and two or three others may be alternate control channels. (Sometimes, control channels are rotated for technical reasons). Then the balance of the frequencies are voice frequencies where the conversations occur. So that 20 frequency site can have 19 different conversations (Phase I) or 38 (Phase 2) at one time. (If there is a request for a 20th conversation, the user gets a signal (bonk) that tells them to wait until a frequency opens up for the desired conversation.)

Scanners will work with just control channel programming. Some scanner folks program all frequencies just in case one of the supposed voice channels only, gets pressed into service as a control channel. Very, very rare, but anything is possible.

One thing to bear in mind with Unication. Their original intention was to be a less costly receiver for responders compared to a "regular radio". Folks were seeing they worked better with simulcast systems, so they ended up being used as general scanners, even though that isn't their real intention.
thanks for the info i'll try and reprogram just the control and alternates and drive around to see if i get coverage!
 

AAFC

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Really wish they would make a base Unication scanner!
I'd be happy if Unication made a scanner at all. (base or mobile) Supposedly Unication is working on a mobile scanner (it can be seen on their Taiwan website) but it's been a looong time with no updates. And whatever you do.... DO NOT go the the Unication section of this forum and ask about the scanner. That's all I'm going to say about that. lol.
 

ryolsen8

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I'd be happy if Unication made a scanner at all. (base or mobile) Supposedly Unication is working on a mobile scanner (it can be seen on their Taiwan website) but it's been a looong time with no updates. And whatever you do.... DO NOT go the the Unication section of this forum and ask about the scanner. That's all I'm going to say about that. lol.

It's not quite the same, but the Uniden SDS models are pretty good units.
 

AAFC

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It's not quite the same, but the Uniden SDS models are pretty good units.

I've never owned an SDS but I have talked to a scanner dealer who was telling me how good they work, even in bad simulcast situations. I forget his exact comment but it was something like..... "Yeah, they're great. The SDS handles simulcast very well. I heard about 90-95% of everything during the Floyd protests in Minneapolis."

That did not sound very impressive to me. I was also listening to the Floyd protests (riots) with my old GRE in Bloomington on various ARMER systems (East Henn, City Center, etc) and I was also able to get about that same percentage.

Again, I do not own an SDS so I can't really say anything about them...... However, I do now own a Unication voice pager and I don't miss ANYTHING. I get 100% of the radio transmissions (as far as I can tell) from the departments that I monitor. They are crystal clear with no distortion. I have 4 or 5 other scanners that I can use for other things if i want to truly "scan" radio systems. But for me, monitoring my local ARMER talk groups, the Unication is King. Your mileage may vary.
 

ofd8001

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I've monitored the ARMER system with all models of Uniden scanners from the 796D to the current SDS 100/200 models. The SDS scanners are far and above the best at decoding transmissions in the Metro area.

As noted above, Unication receivers are also excellent units for decoding. Unfortunately the number of talkgroups is lower than with scanners, so some thought is needed on which is most suitable.
 

wogggieee

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If you're in a base station scenario an SDR running software like trunkrecorder or sdrtrunk is going to offer the most cost effective solution to simulcast issues. I've built a small linux box with two SDRs each dedicated to a county for less than the cost of one physical scanner and because of the way they operate I miss nothing unlike normal scanners.
 
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