Mythology of cable length?

KD7CJW

Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2021
Messages
5
Location
Hermiston, Oregon
I am about to put up 4 base station antennae. I have searched and read about cable lengths until my eyes hurt!!!

I would like someone to please tell me if, within any given band (2m, 70cm, CB, etc.) the length of the feed line has any significant bearing on the efficiency of the radio/feedline/antenna combination. I'm 72 years old and I don't want to have to do this twice!

Many thanks!
Nick
 

Attachments

  • Ham Business Card (new).JPG
    Ham Business Card (new).JPG
    78.3 KB · Views: 10

PACNWDude

Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2012
Messages
1,347
I have used RG-58 in lengths at and below 50 feet and up to 512MHz, as well as LMR-400 (and equivalent) up to 100 feet and 956 MHz, for both commercial and amateur use for thirty years and have experienced very little in the way of line loss and impact from SWR. This has been for fixed station, portable and fixed repeaters, mobile installations in vehicles, vessels, and a few aircraft. There will always be some "engineer" type (I have also worked as a radio engineer as well) that will bring out the math, line loss, velocity factor, ground plane square inches, etc ad infinitum saying that this will not work. Real world, use the appropriate connectors on each end (no adapters), the shortest most direct cable run without bending coax beyond its bend radius or daisy chaining coax pieces, and coax able to handle the power output, and you can achieve excellent results without the science aspect impacting that much. You could easily use LMR-400 for your 2 meter, 70 cm, CB (assuming 27-29 MHz), and 800-900 Mhz solution, keeping below 100 foot in cable length and be fine. I would still use the correct connectors, one single coax run for each antenna, and check SWR with a meter, but I do exactly that at my own home and have no problems. There is no need to over complicate the scenario, and my own radio system is not "public safety grade" funded by grants and tax payer budget, with padded hardware as a result.
 

popnokick

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Mar 21, 2004
Messages
2,841
Location
Northeast PA
I believe what confuses us about coaxial cable length and the attenuation of specific frequencies is that you can indeed make a coaxial cable "stub filter" if you wish to block a certain frequency. However, doing this accidentally in the course of connecting a length of coax transmission line to an antenna would be an unusual (not impossible) occurrence. Here is MUCH more detail on coaxial stub filters, how they work, and how to make them - https://www.onallbands.com/simple-filters-from-transmission-line-stubs/
 

majoco

Stirrer
Joined
Dec 25, 2008
Messages
4,285
Location
New Zealand
Wasn't this myth put around by CB'ers who said that you can improve the VSWR of a setup by making the length of the feeder coax a multiple of a quarter wavelength. I don't know about the quarter wavelength but it's true! You can improve the VSWR as seen at the transmitter of a bad antenna by trimming the coax - but it's still a bad antenna and you are still inducing losses into the mismatched coax. Better to get up to the antenna and putting your VSWR bridge up there and adjusting the antenna for minimum reflected power, then checking down below that you have the same VSWR - if not then you may have a poor connector, damaged coax or poor grounding.
 

R8000

Low Battery
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,011
Easy answer : Use good RG 8 or LMR 400 if under 100 feet.
 

Ubbe

Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
9,046
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
I would like someone to please tell me if, within any given band (2m, 70cm, CB, etc.) the length of the feed line has any significant bearing on the efficiency of the radio/feedline/antenna combination.
There will always be some SWR, it's pretty much impossible to have a 1.0:1, and that SWR will be compensated for by having a specific coax length for the wavelength to match the impedance.

But a relatively bad SWR of 2.0:1 will only give a loss of 11%, that's 1dB in voltage and 0,5dB in power, and will in most cases have no impact on performance. The more attenuation the coax have the less impact from SWR. If the choosen coax will attenuate 3dB more at the frequency the SWR will be reduced to half. Using a 75 ohm coax to a 50 ohm device will give a 1,5:1 SWR.

/Ubbe
 

N9JIG

Sheriff
Moderator
Joined
Dec 14, 2001
Messages
5,600
Location
Far NW Valley
Wasn't this myth put around by CB'ers who said that you can improve the VSWR of a setup by making the length of the feeder coax a multiple of a quarter wavelength.


I wonder if this started when co-phased antennas became popular for the OTR trucks back in the 70's or so. I recall reading in the magazines of the day that the feed lines had to be exactly the same length and 1/4th a wavelength or bad voodoo would happen. My bicycle was too small for effective use of co-phased antennas then so I really didn't pay too much attention to it.
 

merlin

Active Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2003
Messages
2,550
Location
DN32su
First, cable length doesn't mean anything outside of losses for a single antenna system at given frequency.
Length does get critical with multi antenna where phasing comes into play.
Assume same impedance, any length coax to a "T", then use 1/4, 1/2, or full wave 'runners' of equal length to 2 antennas. The co-phase.
That old CB 'GIZMOTCHY' antenna, 3, 1/2 wave vertical dipoles used a set of 'phasing' cables, switched between the dipoles, you could 'STEER' the gain in 120 degree steps or switch to omni.
Both configurations also mean an 'IN- PHASE' antenna separation. (ideal for trucks being 108 inches wide for CB)
The gain lobes to the front and rear of the truck.
What about mixing cables of different impedance ? That can get complicated, get the 'ARRL antenna book' and read the chapter on 'series sections'. this works like a hard wired antenna tuner and can correct SWR mis match.
Length of the section is critical. Many commercial verticals have these stuffed into the base of the antenna.
73s
 
Last edited:

OpSec

All your WACN are belong to us
Database Admin
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,850
Location
Monitoring the database
I wonder if this started when co-phased antennas became popular for the OTR trucks back in the 70's or so. I recall reading in the magazines of the day that the feed lines had to be exactly the same length and 1/4th a wavelength or bad voodoo would happen. My bicycle was too small for effective use of co-phased antennas then so I really didn't pay too much attention to it.

As well as the old Motorola document for running split VHF lowband antennas on a radio like the Syntor X/X9000 that would cover a wide split, requiring two antennas cut for different parts of the band and phased together with a coax harness of specific length.
 

prcguy

Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Messages
15,368
Location
So Cal - Richardson, TX - Tewksbury, MA
What's probably happened over the years is many people have used sh*t antennas that are not decoupled very well from the feedline. A mirror mounted whip on a big rig with fiberglass cab is one example where there is insufficient ground plane and the coax becomes the counterpoise. The Antron 99 is another where it lights up the mast and coax with RF. In these cases the antenna and feedline and mast are a 'system" and the length of the feedline would be critical for the system to work right and if you vary the length of the feedline it will show different VSWR with those different lengths.

For most antennas you can ignore coax length and just use the lowest loss version you can afford and the least amount needed to do the job. If the antenna is tuned and has a great match then you should not notice any change in VSWR if you vary the coax length.
 

n0jy

Member
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Jul 15, 2013
Messages
11
Location
Granbury, TX
The length of any type of coax (RG-8, LMR-400, RG-58 etc.) makes a difference in signal loss. The higher the frequency, 70cm being the highest you mentioned, the more signal loss. You could make a quick look for what might be best for you on whatever band/frequency using a simple online calculator, to help determine what cable fits your needs and budget. I like the Times Microwave page, easy to use just cable type, frequency, length. - Times Microwave

My point is primarily in consideration of weak-signal cases, where that loss/cable type can make or break your fun.
On 70cm and 2m if you are looking for simplex or tropo "DX" opportunities, or you are a ways away from some repeaters you want to use, I would suggest "fatter" cable for less signal loss (fatter simply meaning diameter/quality) for maximum signal i.e. (typically) distance. The difference between 100 feet of RG-8 (2.4 dB loss) and RG-58 (5.5 dB loss, per calculator) at 2m is in my opinion, of great consideration in working satellites which is what I kinda do. I helped a local ham go from frustration toward the top of the leaderboard (satellite telemetry) by simply suggesting that he replace his 70 feet of RG-58 with RG-8 or better.

If you intend to work local, casual stuff or to listen to local agencies on a scanner you may not feel the need to be so concerned with loss.
The fact that you were looking at the numbers though, gives me the impression that you do care to some extent. That's why I offer the online calculator solution, you can get the basic loss numbers for any length of coax in a minute or less. Compare the ones you are thinking to use and go for it.

Others have covered connectors and bends and such which I agree with and have nothing to add, a good cable includes everything that makes it a cable run. None of what I have said is about length vs. SWR or band rejection and so forth. If you pick a cable for the bands you mentioned and your intended enjoyment of the bands, you will be happy and I seriously doubt that you will encounter any situation where length vs. frequency is a factor. KIPS (keep it pretty simple) and that's my two cents based on your ask. Have fun!
73

Jerry
N0JY
 

Ubbe

Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
9,046
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
You can improve the VSWR as seen at the transmitter of a bad antenna by trimming the coax - but it's still a bad antenna and you are still inducing losses into the mismatched coax.
Yes, but remember that when you manage to get no SWR at the transmitter by using a specific coax length, that the reflecting power from a bad mismatched antenna has to go somewhere else than into the transmitter, and that is out to the antenna. So by using the correct coax length you have managed to correct the SWR and made a more efficient antenna system.

When you have two supposedly 50 ohm CB antennas and two 50 ohm coaxes that then are connected in parallel, you would need some sort of match to the 50 ohm CB radio and that can be done by using a very specific length of coax to the CB radio. So those CB guys are correct that the length of the coax are crucial in those kinds of twin antenna installations. Any stacking harness used for stacking antennas use the same principal of having a specific length of the coax will give one impedance at one end and another impedance at the other end of the coax.

/Ubbe
 

prcguy

Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Messages
15,368
Location
So Cal - Richardson, TX - Tewksbury, MA
Combining two 50 ohm antennas using a critical lengths of coax is getting away from the original question and the ongoing arguments you hear about coax lengths on CB in the US. Many people still believe that using a very specific length of coax is necessary for proper operation with a single antenna and they will go to great effort to measure and cut the cable when its totally unnecessary.

Dual antennas, popular on big rigs and smaller trucks usually mounted to outboard mirrors require a special "phasing harness" comprised of critical lengths of 75 ohm coax to match the two antennas to a 50 ohm radio. There are many ways to accomplish matching two antennas with the cheapest being a harness made of TV coax and that's what's supplied by most CB antenna mfrs. This is all necessary for dual antennas but not for a single antenna, unless the single antenna or its designer is broken.

Yes, but remember that when you manage to get no SWR at the transmitter by using a specific coax length, that the reflecting power from a bad mismatched antenna has to go somewhere else than into the transmitter, and that is out to the antenna. So by using the correct coax length you have managed to correct the SWR and made a more efficient antenna system.

When you have two supposedly 50 ohm CB antennas and two 50 ohm coaxes that then are connected in parallel, you would need some sort of match to the 50 ohm CB radio and that can be done by using a very specific length of coax to the CB radio. So those CB guys are correct that the length of the coax are crucial in those kinds of twin antenna installations. Any stacking harness used for stacking antennas use the same principal of having a specific length of the coax will give one impedance at one end and another impedance at the other end of the coax.

/Ubbe
 

Ubbe

Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
9,046
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Combining two 50 ohm antennas using a critical lengths of coax is getting away from the original question....
I would say it is the exact same thing, being it the antenna that creates SWR or a SWR created by connecting together coaxes of different impedances. In both cases you use a specific length of a coax to get rid of the SWR. If you have a perfect match at both ends then the coax length doesn't matter at all. But as I wrote, SWR doesn't create a lot of losses and in most cases doesn't affect performance to a degree that you have to worry about it.

/Ubbe
 

prcguy

Member
Joined
Jun 30, 2006
Messages
15,368
Location
So Cal - Richardson, TX - Tewksbury, MA
The point I'm trying to make is combining or "co-phasing" two antennas is a specific thing that uses critical lengths of coax that must be done in all cases. Most CB antennas are plug and play with the coax, you can use any 50 ohm type and any length.

I would say it is the exact same thing, being it the antenna that creates SWR or a SWR created by connecting together coaxes of different impedances. In both cases you use a specific length of a coax to get rid of the SWR. If you have a perfect match at both ends then the coax length doesn't matter at all. But as I wrote, SWR doesn't create a lot of losses and in most cases doesn't affect performance to a degree that you have to worry about it.

/Ubbe
 
Joined
Feb 4, 2021
Messages
5
Location
Jeffersonville in
I'm tired of this quest for the right information that for me does not seem to exist for me at all so please, somebody tell me how to build my own coax harness for dual antennas just the coax and only the coax is all I need info about with a dual application.
What type of coax should I use 75 ohm or 50 ohm or both, how long should I measure each strand of coax for the Y shaped coax harness ? No more web links that go nowhere and no more mathematical formulas.
Please just the type of coax and the lebgths

I have been in search of lasting over 2 years mostly online research for this tiny bit of information about making my own coax harness for a dual antenna setup for 11 meter that apparently cannot be shared by anyone or maybe a big coax manufacturing company for dual antenna setups will lose so much money forcing them into bankruptcy then shutdown if a single individual private citizen of USA learns the secret lengths needed in a DIY how to make they're own dual antenna harness the right way causing the rest of the world to follow suite and never purchase overpriced cheap wire prefabricated for dual antennas ever again.
 

R8000

Low Battery
Premium Subscriber
Joined
Dec 19, 2002
Messages
1,011
The OP asked about good coax to connect 4 base antennas. Not sure how/why we drifted off topic so far.
 

Ubbe

Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2006
Messages
9,046
Location
Stockholm, Sweden
Please just the type of coax and the lebgths
The coax to both antennas needs to have the exact same length. If you can use 75 ohm coax then their length has to be a 1/4 wavelength or an odd multiple of it. At 11 meters and 27.2MHz a 1/4 wave are 2,75 meters and odd multiples are 8,27 and 13,8 meters.

Different coax qualities has different amount of delay of the radiowaves that needs to be added. Standard cheap RG6 CATV coax are of the Full PE type so the length of the coaxes should then be either 1,8 5,5 or 9,2 meters. This assumes antennas to be 50 ohm I.E using proper groundplane like a metal surface of 2 meters radius or GP radials or tune the antennas when they are installed using 50 ohm coax to lowest SWR.

stacking with coax cables (qsl.net)

V=Velocity of propagation, depends on the dielectric attribute of the cable, e.g.

Full-PE V=0,667

PTFE V = 0,71

Foam-PE V = 0,8-0,85


2xstacking_cable.gif


/Ubbe
 
Top