Nagoya NA-771 counterfeits

[tweiss3]

Fascinating discussion.

I recently bought some Luiton 771 antennas. While listening to several people discussing a computer problem (using a Baofeng 5R with stock antenna), I wondered if I could improve my reception, I removed said stock antenna and replaced it with the Luiton whip. Instead of improving the quality of the transmissions, which were about five miles distant, I found that I now couldn't hear anything at all! My squelch was set at 2 and it was as if my radio was dead. So I removed the Luiton and replaced it with my stock antenna, and the people were still chatting away and I could hear every word the people were saying.

I repeated the above with a different Luiton and got the same results. So I sent the antennas back for a refund. I have several TidRadio antennas but have not tested them. If anyone has any experience witht those, I'd love to hear it. I just got a Nagoya NA-24J which I love. And I bought two Nagoya NA-771s, which I yet have received. The Luiton antennas looked fine. I just didn't know why they weren't performing.

I came away with some new respect for the standard Baofeng antennas and the fact that they buried Luiton antennas. I concede they could be a defective run, but Luiton will have to prove they can make antennas before I trust them again. And when I get my Nagoya antennas, I'm going to perform a comparison with the TidRadio antennas I have.

Text book front end overload. Hears fine with the stock dummy load, but the better antennas easily pickup enough to turn cheap radios into nothing more than battery wasters.

 

[Stargater53]

So you're saying it's the radio, not the antenna?

(Please excuse me as I'm new to all this. My wife's an electrical engineer, but one who can't install a light dimmer. I can install the dimmer, but will probably get electrocuted in the process. 😲 )

 

[DeoVindice]

So you're saying it's the radio, not the antenna?

(Please excuse me as I'm new to all this. My wife's an electrical engineer, but one who can't install a light dimmer. I can install the dimmer, but will probably get electrocuted in the process. 😲 )

Exactly. They have no front-end filtering and will overload and go dead in the presence of a strong signal.

I experienced this firsthand yesterday when helping a friend set up a UV-5R. I was carrying a Kenwood NX-200 at the time. His radio kept unmuting for RFI, and displayed flickering behavior on receive. My Kenwood only unmuted for actual transmissions on the frequency I was monitoring.

 

[Stargater53]

Exactly. They have no front-end filtering and will overload and go dead in the presence of a strong signal. I experienced this firsthand yesterday when helping a friend set up a UV-5R. I was carrying a Kenwood NX-200 at the time. His radio kept unmuting for RFI, and displayed flickering behavior on receive. My Kenwood only unmuted for actual transmissions on the frequency I was mmonitoring.

The people I was listening to were about six miles away. And signal strength was good in that I could hear everything they were saying. I was using the UV-5R w/stock antenna. The aftermarket antenna was a Luiton 771. They seemed to be a bargain at the time, as I figured that radio antennas weren't rocket science.

Are all Baofeng radios susceptible to the problem you mention, or only the R5s? I also have a couple of UV-82HPs and a couple of BF-H7s, which I love. I also may get a Radioddity GT-510, which is a cousin to the H7 (both are 10-watt). I really like the 82-series, but I want to do some range tests to see how they fare in an urban setting.

It kind of took me by surprise when the signal seemingly vanished with a (also seemingly) better antenna. I blamed the antenna, but now it appears to be the radio. With all of the aftermarket antennas, do you think I'll run into this problem? Since i blamed the antenna, I ordered a Nagoya 771 and another 24J. What happened with your friend's R5? Did he have any other radios or is he just getting started in ham radio?

I'm giving my R5 to my wife without an antenna, just so she can hit a button and activate the radio's siren and flashlight strobe. I accidentally set it off and it took me term minutes to find the cat and coax him back to the bed!

 

[tweiss3]

The people I was listening to were about six miles away. And signal strength was good in that I could hear everything they were saying. I was using the UV-5R w/stock antenna. The aftermarket antenna was a Luiton 771. They seemed to be a bargain at the time, as I figured that radio antennas weren't rocket science.

Are all Baofeng radios susceptible to the problem you mention, or only the R5s? I also have a couple of UV-82HPs and a couple of BF-H7s, which I love. I also may get a Radioddity GT-510, which is a cousin to the H7 (both are 10-watt). I really like the 82-series, but I want to do some range tests to see how they fare in an urban setting.

It kind of took me by surprise when the signal seemingly vanished with a (also seemingly) better antenna. I blamed the antenna, but now it appears to be the radio. With all of the aftermarket antennas, do you think I'll run into this problem? Since i blamed the antenna, I ordered a Nagoya 771 and another 24J. What happened with your friend's R5? Did he have any other radios or is he just getting started in ham radio?

I'm giving my R5 to my wife without an antenna, just so she can hit a button and activate the radio's siren and flashlight strobe. I accidentally set it off and it took me term minutes to find the cat and coax him back to the bed!

Yep. Basically any inexpensive Chinese radio (CCR) will likely suffer from front end overload. I've even notice it on my Anytone 878Plus. On analog, it was slightly better with the stock antenna vs the 701 & 771, but sitting next to my D74, and FT817 listening to the same conversation side by side, the 878 still couldn't hold open due to the overload.

Another example. I have a 1/2 wave VHF whip in the attic on a mag mount and wire ground plane, setup for APRS only. At 1W its enough to get out to the digipeaters and iGates. I had to get some information out on a regular basis, so I had a boafeng (that would never be used otherwise) sitting around and a sound card cable that worked for it (Kenwood style). I gets the information out at 1W, but it doesn't receive anything, even with squelch at 0. Meanwhile, if I shut it down and go to attach my D74 to the coax, the second it touches, beacons start flashing across the screen.

I noticed a huge improvement when I put a better antenna on my D74 and FT3DR, but didn't notice an improvement on any of the chinese crap.

If you want to avoid the problem all together, stay away from the cheaper chinese stuff, and go with the Japanese made stuff, Alinco, Kenwood, Yaesu, Icom.

 

[Stargater53]

Basically any inexpensive Chinese radio (CCR) will likely suffer from front end overload. I've even notice it on my Anytone 878Plus. On analog, it was slightly better with the stock antenna vs the 701 & 771, but sitting next to my D74, and FT817 listening to the same conversation side by side, the 878 still couldn't hold open due to the overload.

The biggest question I have is, why did the signal come through using my stock antenna, but vanish on my 171-clone antenna? How exactly does the overload happen? Do you think it would happen with a $60 Chinese radio or should I dump Chinese radios altogether?

Baofeng certainly knows this happens, just as it knows about its signal/frequency bleeding, and it's taken steps in other 5R iterations to fix them. To lose signal altogether is certainly a deal breaker, or should be.

BTW, what happened with your friend's 5R? Did you get it working to his satisfaction? I bought two 5Rs, one blue, one yellow. They work well with each other, but don't know how they'd work long term with other radios.

Thanks for your feedback and explanations. They've been very helpful!

 

[AK9R]

The biggest question I have is, why did the signal come through using my stock antenna, but vanish on my 171-clone antenna? How exactly does the overload happen?

When the signals, from all sources, not just your frequency of interest, hit the initial RF stages of the radio, the electronics become overloaded. You and a friend may be able to whisper to each other across an empty room, but turn on a large stereo system playing loud music and you will no longer be able to hear each other because your ears are overloaded. The same concept applies in radio.

The stock antenna may be very lossy, thus reducing the level of interfering signals that hit the RF stage of the radio. The aftermarket antenna may not be so lossy, so the radio gets overloaded.

Do you think it would happen with a $60 Chinese radio or should I dump Chinese radios altogether?

On general principle, dump the cheap, Chinese radios. Most of them use a "radio on a chip" which is a complete receiver and transmitter on one piece of silicon. These ROCs are useful devices, but you need to sufficiently filter the RF before it gets to the chip otherwise the chip will become overloaded. The cheap, Chinese radios, because they are designed for the lowest possible price, leave out the filters.

Baofeng certainly knows this happens, just as it knows about its signal/frequency bleeding, and it's taken steps in other 5R iterations to fix them. To lose signal altogether is certainly a deal breaker, or should be.

Do you really think they care? They can sell thousands of radios to unsuspecting customers world-wide. If a few customers complain, it's a drop in the bucket compared to their total sales. Yes, some steps have been taken to mitigate spurious emissions from the transmitters, but that's a measurable quantity. Overload of the receivers is more difficult to measure and there are no standards for it imposed by regulators like the FCC.

 

[DeoVindice]

Are all Baofeng radios susceptible to the problem you mention, or only the R5s? I also have a couple of UV-82HPs and a couple of BF-H7s, which I love. I also may get a Radioddity GT-510, which is a cousin to the H7 (both are 10-watt). I really like the 82-series, but I want to do some range tests to see how they fare in an urban setting.

It kind of took me by surprise when the signal seemingly vanished with a (also seemingly) better antenna. I blamed the antenna, but now it appears to be the radio. With all of the aftermarket antennas, do you think I'll run into this problem? Since i blamed the antenna, I ordered a Nagoya 771 and another 24J. What happened with your friend's R5? Did he have any other radios or is he just getting started in ham radio?

Yes, it's likely to occur with any Baofeng radio. Some are better than others due to inconsistent QC/manufacturing but they all use system-on-a-chip architecture.

He also has an EF Johnson 5100ES (they've gotten very popular around here for 70cm P25) which experiences no overload whatsoever. This area is even a bit hostile for UHF; there's a big MOTOTRBO system that sometimes bleeds its rest channel onto GMRS frequencies. That's happened less lately; either the FCC complaint another operator filed had an effect, or the system operator fixed it on their own (possibly accidentally; they claimed everything was working properly). I've even heard it show up on a 70cm repeater output.

You're likely to see a big difference by moving to commercial radios; high-end equipment is often available used for less than new ham gear. I really like the Kenwood TK-2180 (VHF) and TK-3180 (UHF) for amateur use. There are some real geeks here who would be happy to help you with getting them set up.

 

[rescuecomm]

I have experienced the same problem with the extended antennas on certain radios. I wrote it off to the center pin not making contact with the antenna socket due to the base skirt being too long. Some radios didn't let the antenna fully thread in due to the diameter of the base.

 

[Stargater53]

The stock antenna may be very lossy, thus reducing the level of interfering signals that hit the RF stage of the radio. The aftermarket antenna may not be so lossy, so the radio gets overloaded.

Well, it promises to be a very interesting hobby. Are more expensive Baofengs (meaning ALL of them) apt to suffer similarly? The reason I ask is that I actually like some of them.

I gave my wife a 5R just for the siren. (It's nice for any woman who on occasion walks in underground garages. Just push a button and all hell breaks loose. It also has the FM radio built in.) It works okay as a 2-way walkie-talkie and I have no problems using them for a nearby lake and hiking trails. Apart from that, I bought a Baofeng UV-82 8-watt, a BF-H6 (Radioddity GA-510) 10-watt and a BF-H7 10-watt (both set at 5-watt MEDIUM), and I really like them, despite the fact that they look and feel like bricks. I reckon there's a 5-watt Japanese radio in my future

On general principle, dump the cheap, Chinese radios. Most of them use a "radio on a chip" which is a complete receiver and transmitter on one piece of silicon. These ROCs are useful devices, but you need to sufficiently filter the RF before it gets to the chip otherwise the chip will become overloaded. The cheap, Chinese radios, because they are designed for the lowest possible price, leave out the filters.

Alas, easier said than done. Baofeng seems to rule YouTube. Range tests. Antenna tests. Most seem to involve Baofengs at one step or another. As I said above, I really like many of those cheap radios. If I'd known what you just wrote, I would have avoided the Baofengs in favor of...well, I don't know what I would have bought. Price is an issue and the Baofengs attracted me as addition to my bugout bag. As I scoured YouTube, however, it was Baofeng this and Baofeng that, and it wasn't long before I bought several radios for my bugout bag. And they actually may be okay for such a purpose, but for a hobbyist I get the proverbial you get what you pay for.

Do you really think they care? They can sell thousands of radios to unsuspecting customers world-wide. If a few customers complain, it's a drop in the bucket compared to their total sales. Yes, some steps have been taken to mitigate spurious emissions from the transmitters, but that's a measurable quantity. Overload of the receivers is more difficult to measure and there are no standards for it imposed by regulators like the FCC.

No. Some of my other hobbies are guns, knives and flashlights. Each of these require strong quality control. If a gun jams, if a knife is cheaply made and doesn't cut or lock, or a flashlight doesn't work, or the brightness and runtimes are not up to par, or if it's cheaply made, these things impact sales and companies can be run out of business. But in radios, companies apparently sweep their deficiencies under the carpet and few people are apparently the wiser.

When the signals, from all sources, not just your frequency of interest, hit the initial RF stages of the radio, the electronics become overloaded. You and a friend may be able to whisper to each other across an empty room, but turn on a large stereo system playing loud music and you will no longer be able to hear each other because your ears are overloaded. The same concept applies in radio.

In my home, I have few competing signals. I actually have no signals in the area in which I live. I was listening to three guys having a conversation about computers. When I switched to a Nagoya clone antenna, I lost all signals; however, when I went back to my stock antenna, the conversation was still going on.

So what was going on? Was the Nagoya clone (Luiton) a cheap useless antenna? Or was it the fault of my cheap Baofeng radio? I don't know. If those same guys were on the air every day at the same time, I could run a few tests. Some people say that I shouldn't use antenna clones, that I should stick with the actual Nagoya NA-171. Others say antennas aren't rocket science, and that the Nagoya clones are as good as the real deal. I don't know. Again, I'd have to test it with the same conditions. But thanks for your valuable input!

 

[Stargater53]

Yes, it's likely to occur with any Baofeng radio. Some are better than others due to inconsistent QC/manufacturing but they all use system-on-a-chip architecture. He also has an EF Johnson 5100ES (they've gotten very popular around here for 70cm P25) which experiences no overload whatsoever. This area is even a bit hostile for UHF; there's a big MOTOTRBO system that sometimes bleeds its rest channel onto GMRS frequencies. That's happened less lately; either the FCC complaint another operator filed had an effect, or the system operator fixed it on their own (possibly accidentally; they claimed everything was working properly). I've even heard it show up on a 70cm repeater output. You're likely to see a big difference by moving to commercial radios; high-end equipment is often available used for less than new ham gear. I really like the Kenwood TK-2180 (VHF) and TK-3180 (UHF) for amateur use. There are some real geeks here who would be happy to help you with getting them set up.

Thanks for your views as well. I'm thinking of just moving to a mobile base unit with a roof antenna. I have a friend with a ladder and he knows how to install them.

 

[AK9R]

I don't want this to be a Baofeng thread. Your question was about possible counterfeit antennas. Have those questions been answered?

 

[Firekite]

So what was going on?

That’s the hard part about using cheap radios that inherently cut major corners in their design to keep prices low and profits high from YouTubers trying to get famous and others who also don’t know what they’re talking about speaking with unearned confidence online. Which cheap component is the problem? Which corners cut cause the issue? Do you really want to rely on that kind of iffy platform for a true bug-out situation? The whole Facebook meme and Walking Dead inspired prepper “emcom” movement is interesting to look at and potentially good for the hobby overall as some might float to the top and decide to actually get into it, but it’s also caused a glut of cheap-as-possible equipment and people who don’t know what they’re missing.

Do your CCRs offer attenuation options? If so, next time you get the chance, you can try throwing your other antenna on there and enable some level(s) of attenuation to see if things suddenly come back, which might help figure out whether the radio is getting overloaded.