New FRS Radios?

[K6GBW]

Are any manufacturers making new FRS radios with all of the authorized 22 channels and new power levels? I haven't seen any advertisements for such.

Thanks,

B

 

[nd5y]

They didn't have to make new radios. They are mostly selling the existing 2 watt 22 channel GMRS/FRS combination radios that were reclassified as FRS. Most of the new FCC IDs I have seen that were granted after 2019 for FRS radios have been chinese junk with way less than 2 W output power listed.

 

[K6GBW]

Copy that. I'm a ham but I have frequent road trips with people that aren't. I just looking for some decent hand held units that I can just pass out. I'm guessing the Motorola or Uniden models would be okay. Just asking because its been so long since I've looked at these.

 

[Lowboy23]

Looks like Dewalt is making FRS two watters.

 

[n1das]

Copy that. I'm a ham but I have frequent road trips with people that aren't. I just looking for some decent hand held units that I can just pass out. I'm guessing the Motorola or Uniden models would be okay. Just asking because its been so long since I've looked at these.

I do this too but don't use FRS at all. I use Motorola DLR and DTR sereis 900MHz FHSS digital on-site business radios instead of FRS. They are my high quality digital replacement for GMRS/FRS and MURS for local on-site simplex type use with family and friends. I would love to be able to legally use P25, DMR, and NXDN digital modes on GMRS and MURS but that probably will never happen. I own a fleet of DTR700 and DTR650 radios and used to own a fleet of DLR series radios. They work far superior to FRS, are 100% digital, FHSS, and can be made very secure. They are capable of outperforming UHF Part 90 portables on simplex. They are not monitorable with any consumer grade receiver (scanner) so don't even bother trying. They operate at 1W in the 902-928MHz band and operate unlicensed under Part 15. They are marketed for on-site business type use but anybody else can use them. They work excellent for caravanning too.

Frequency-hopping spread spectrum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A coworker once asked me why not just use FRS? My answer was that I have already been doing that since FRS was created in 1996 and longer than that as a GMRS licensee since 1992 and using good quality Part 90/95 commercial gear. I want a secure, all-digital solution that is higher quality and more professional than FRS. I have also been bitten by the digital radio bug as a ham and want a practical digital solution for my non-ham stuff.

I still have GMRS/FRS and MURS as backups and for interoperability but they are no longer my default go-to modes for local on-site simplex type use with family and friends. Aside from occasional light use of FRS once in a blue moon, I don't use analog at all anymore for my non-ham stuff. LOL, my wife is a non-ham and no longer wants to use FRS at all because she prefers to use the 900MHz digital radios because they work so well. We always have them with us whenever we are out and about and shopping or doing whatever.

Motorola DLR series:

Unlicensed Business Radios - Motorola Solutions

Motorola’s on-site two-way business radios are designed to meet your business needs, helping your team coordinate quickly to address customer needs.

www.motorolasolutions.com

DLR1060:

DLR1060 - Motorola Solutions

DLR1060

www.motorolasolutions.com

Motorola DTR series:

DTR On-Site Digital Two-Way Radios - Motorola Solutions

Learn more about the DTR series radio that provides wide-area coverage making it the perfect partner for small businesses.

www.motorolasolutions.com

DTR700:

DTR700 Digital Two Way Radio - Motorola Solutions

Slim and rugged, the DTR700 delivers free, private communication to your team. Quickly locate all features with intuitive navigation. Learn more.

www.motorolasolutions.com

 

[n1das]

Copy that. I'm a ham but I have frequent road trips with people that aren't. I just looking for some decent hand held units that I can just pass out. I'm guessing the Motorola or Uniden models would be okay. Just asking because its been so long since I've looked at these.

The Motorola Talkabouts have been my favorites for FRS.

 

[n1das]

The Motorola Talkabouts have been my favorites for FRS.

A for new FRS radios, most manufacturers are simply reclassifying their existing 22-channel GMRS/FRS combo models as FRS under the new rules. Nothing changes from a hardware perspective.

I have tried other FRS radios over the years but I keep coming back to the Motorola Talkabout radios. Many of the older Motorola Talkabout radios were made in China for Motorola by Giant International (Products). Motorola's deal with Giant International ended a few years ago and the latest T-series Motorola Talkabout models are genuine Motorola and made in Motorola's factories. I noticed the build quality of the latest Talkabout models seems to be better than the older Giant models.

My only complaint about the Talkabouts is they have Motorola's crappy and much hated X-PAND audio companding system. It is always enabled and with no option to disable it to better deal with non-Motorola radios. The companding feature works as advertised but creates a problem when listening to other radios that don't compress their audio. The compander expands received audio that wan't compressed originally and blows it apart, making non-companded radios sound muffled and distorted on the Talkabout. It's an all or nothing type deal where all radios talking to each other need to compand their audio for all radios to sound right.. The Talkabouts need to have an option to disable the compander when working with a mix of radios from different manufacturers.

There were a couple of Talkabout models made by Giant International that don't have Motorola's X-PAND audio companding system and have just plain audio like non-Motorola radios. These are the MU350R and MS350R. I have owned both of these models.

The MU350R has Bluetooth connectivity.

Product Overview

The MS350R is waterproof submersible and is one of the few 22-channel GMRS/FRS bubble packs with GMRS repeater capability. Repeater capability had to go away under the new rules for FRS so this model is likely discontinued.

Product Overview

 

[nd5y]

Looks like Dewalt is making FRS two watters.

Nope. At least the supposedly 2 W model that Home Depot carries is made by Altis Technology in China and according to the FCC grant it puts out 871 mW high power and 251 mW low power.

https://fccid.io/2AHJMDXFHJJ

 

[K6GBW]

Thanks for all the replies. I haven't looked at these types of radios in many years. But, since I retired I have more time to travel and go into the wild with other people, many of whom are not hams. Having two or three 2 watt radios available would be really handy. I agree totally about the Motorola compander thing. It is of marginal value and there are other things people would likely want in a radio. Me personally, I'd prefer a simple radio that gets good battery life, is chargable by USB and doesn't look like it was made by Fisher Price! I had hoped at one that Motorola might produce something that looks like the RDX series of radios but reconfigured for FRS. No such luck I guess.

I'm currently looking at the Midland stuff. I doesn't look too bad, but I have no direct experience with them.

 

[Kaleier1]

I do this too but don't use FRS at all. I use Motorola DLR and DTR sereis 900MHz FHSS digital on-site business radios instead of FRS.

I never knew this unlicensed service existed and using spread spectrum is a nice bonus as far as security. I see pricing is anywhere between $200+ to $300+ depending how many channels you want which could be worth it if you use them often.

With 1 watt at 900 Mhz and spread spectrum, what kind of distance can you expect in a city, say one person in a house and one walking around the neighborhood where you would have other house between the two users? What kind of distance would you expect outdoors with clear line of sight between two units?

 

[n1das]

I never knew this unlicensed service existed and using spread spectrum is a nice bonus as far as security. I see pricing is anywhere between $200+ to $300+ depending how many channels you want which could be worth it if you use them often.

With 1 watt at 900 Mhz and spread spectrum, what kind of distance can you expect in a city, say one person in a house and one walking around the neighborhood where you would have other house between the two users? What kind of distance would you expect outdoors with clear line of sight between two units?

The DTR series has existed since about 2006, 1 year before the first iPhone came out. Available DTR models were DTR410, DTR550, and DTR650. The legacy DTRs were finally discontinued a year or so ago and were replaced by the DTR600 and DTR700 models. I own a fleet of DTR700 radios and the multi-unit charger (MUC) for them. I also own a fleet of the legacy DTR650 and have a MUC for them too. My DTR650s were manufactured in late 2016 and I got them in early 2017. Motorola has enjoyed a long and successful production run with the legacy DTRs.

The DTR series was a spinoff from the off-network Direct Talk feature available in some NEXTEL phones. It was added to iDEN phones (what NEXTEL used) to provide simplex phone to phone PTT coverage when phones were within range of each other. It was useful for when iDEN network coverage was spotty or unavailable. Note that the off-network Direct Talk feature is not to be confused with the DirectConnect feature which used NEXTEL's iDEN network. Picture two contractors working at a job site and wanting to use the phone's PTT feature. If either phone loses network coverage like when working in the basement of a building, the PTT features are useless. The off-network DirectTalk feature provides a solution because the two phones are close enough to be within simplex range of each other.

My wife (g/f at the time) and I both had i355 NEXTEL phones back in the day and we played around with the off-network DirectTalk feature. During a shopping trip at Walmart* (formerly WAL*MART), NEXTEL coverage was spotty at the front entrance and nonexistent when deep inside the store. We switched our phones to DT mode and talked PTT simplex from phone to phone and it worked perfectly everywhere inside the store. I first learned of the DTR series when I was researching the i355.

Motorola added the DLR series in 2015 and it is a lower cost solution aimed at retailers. The look and feel is a lot like the very popular UHF analog CLS series radios that are popular in retaurants and retail. The DTRs are loaded with features and often are too much "radio" for the average business radio user in a retail environment. The DLRs are Motorola's answer to that. DLR = Digital Lightweight Radio, according to Motorola. I used to own a fleet of DLR1060 radios and the MUC for them. I sold them to a friend for his business after getting my fleet of DTR700 radios and the MUC for them.

As for range, my not quite line of sight record stands at 12 miles, from Cocoa Beach Pier in Cocoa Beach FL, to the top of the steps leading down to Hightower Beach in Satellite Beach FL. There is a bit of coastline in the way so it's not quite direct line of sight. I tried this with a friend of mine while vacationing in FL and we also tried it on GMRS with pair of UHF Part 90 portables. GMRS was usable but just barely. We each had to find a hot spot and stay there to use GMRS. Finding a hot spot was less critical with the DTRs.

I have not had a change to test direct line of site over a long distance, like between mountain tops. IIRC there is a forum member on here who has achieved around 75 miles between a mountaintop and the desert and ran out of road before running out of range.

I actually never got my DTRs to set any range records. I got them for reliable high quality local on-site simplex type use where I would otherwise be using GMRS/FRS portables on simplex. They blow FRS away for this application. It's funny how people are so obsessed with getting X miles of range out of a pair of radios when there are so many factors which affect actual range and YMMV. In general with the DTRs and DLRs you can expect actual range to be similar to using a pair of UHF Part 90 portables on simplex. When you finally do run out of coverage due to hills/terrain and buildings in the way, etc., you can expect other portable radios on simplex to be out of coverage too. Can't cheat physics.

Where the DTRs and DLRs do well and beat other radios is when working inside buildings. That's what they were designed for since they are intended for on-site small business use and businesses are usually located inside buildings. Penetrating buildings is generally better since buildings are more "open" at 900MHz compared to VHF and 462/467MHz UHF. Where the DTRs and DLRs blow everything else away is aboard cruise ships. People who have used DTRs aboard cruise ships report having full ship coverage on all decks whereas a pair of UHF Part 90/95 portables on GMRS had difficulty penetrating more than about 2 decks. When deep inside the ship, you are essentially working inside a compartmentalized metal enclosure. The shorter wavelengths signals at 900MHz reflect in and out and around the nooks and crannies of the ship where longer wavelength signals won't. The many reflections actually help with the FHSS operation as the individual hot spots and dead spots hop also around as the frequency hops. The FHSS operation effectively stirs the modes and actually helps.

 

[footage]

I've tested the DTR700s in a number of different situations and was quite impressed. With a clear line of sight in a rural area (for instance, ridge to valley), I've gotten a clear signal at over 5 miles distance, and that's nothing compared to what others have reported. In a hilly urban setting (San Francisco) where line of sight is obstructed by dense houses, I reliably see a bit over one mile range from inside the house to the street. If you have some elevation it's even more. Driving around Los Angeles with one unit sitting inside a motel room at about 100 ft higher than average terrain and the other in a moving car, I got signal within a 2-mile radius. I echo n1das in recommending these radios for use in residential neighborhoods. Where they fail is seeing around hills and into canyons, unless by some chance you get a solid reflection and the radios can handshake. I took one into the northern California woods and tried to talk into a river valley, and the signal wouldn't pass through the rise in the landscape. Otherwise these are great radios.

 

[n1das]

I've tested the DTR700s in a number of different situations and was quite impressed. With a clear line of sight in a rural area (for instance, ridge to valley), I've gotten a clear signal at over 5 miles distance, and that's nothing compared to what others have reported. In a hilly urban setting (San Francisco) where line of sight is obstructed by dense houses, I reliably see a bit over one mile range from inside the house to the street. If you have some elevation it's even more. Driving around Los Angeles with one unit sitting inside a motel room at about 100 ft higher than average terrain and the other in a moving car, I got signal within a 2-mile radius. I echo n1das in recommending these radios for use in residential neighborhoods. Where they fail is seeing around hills and into canyons, unless by some chance you get a solid reflection and the radios can handshake. I took one into the northern California woods and tried to talk into a river valley, and the signal wouldn't pass through the rise in the landscape. Otherwise these are great radios.

What footage said. Can't cheat physics when trying to pass through the rise in the landscape.

As I said earlier, I never got my DTRs and DLR to set any range records. I got them specifically for high quality local on-site simplex type use with family and friends. If I weren't a ham and the radio geek that I am and an EMI/EMC Engineer, I would probably be OK with a pair of FRS bubble packs for my use. The DTRs and DLRs blow FRS away from my experience. I've also been bit by the digital radio bug as a ham and I want a practical digital solution for my non-ham stuff too. The DTRs and DLRs fill an interesting niche.

 

[alcahuete]

What kind of distance would you expect outdoors with clear line of sight between two units?

Well I can answer that one. I have pushed these things to the absolute limits. In the desert where I live, I have gone out over 25 miles with a pair of DTR650s. I actually ran out of road before I ran out of range. Of course there were a few dead spots here and there, but for the most part, had full coverage. Radio #1 was up on my balcony about 10' high, and the other was in a car. There were times I had to get out of the vehicle, of course.

Have had the full cruise ship coverage that N1DAS speaks of, as well as amazing coverage once at the DFW airport when I was passing through and cell phones went down. If you know that airport, you know the terminals are huge. Not only had coverage through an entire terminal, but also from one terminal to another. I was blown away.

 

[n1das]

Well I can answer that one. I have pushed these things to the absolute limits. In the desert where I live, I have gone out over 25 miles with a pair of DTR650s. I actually ran out of road before I ran out of range. Of course there were a few dead spots here and there, but for the most part, had full coverage. Radio #1 was up on my balcony about 10' high, and the other was in a car. There were times I had to get out of the vehicle, of course.

Have had the full cruise ship coverage that N1DAS speaks of, as well as amazing coverage once at the DFW airport when I was passing through and cell phones went down. If you know that airport, you know the terminals are huge. Not only had coverage through an entire terminal, but also from one terminal to another. I was blown away.

LOL, I don't recall where I got the 75 mile number from but I remember it was you that got many miles with a pair of DTRs and ran out of road before running out of range.

My range record stands at 12 miles along the Florida space coast however I never got my DTRs and DLRs to set any range records. Several years ago I was on top of Cannon Mountain in Franconia Notch NH and a ham friend/coworker was on top of Mt. Mansfield in VT which is close to Burlington VT next to Lake Champlain. We both happened to be hilltopping on the same weekend. The two hilltops are close to 70 miles apart. We were in direct line of sight of each other and had no problem talking on analog 440 simplex with only 0.5W from our handhelds. FRS would have worked too. I expect the DTRs and DLRs would have worked too if we had them back then.

FRS isn't going to cut it for the conditions you speak of. The DTRs and DLRs totally blow FRS away. Being 100% digital and completely safe from scanners is a bonus. The DTRs are my high quality digital replacement for GMRS/FRS and MURS for local on-site simplex type use with family and friends.

 

[Kaleier1]

The DTR series has existed since about 2006, 1 year before the first iPhone came out. Available DTR models were DTR410, DTR550, and DTR650......

Thank you for the detailed reply.

 

[Kaleier1]

Okay for the Motorola DTR and DRL 900 MHz radios, how crowded are the channels? You can get them with 2 channels, 6 channels or 20 channels. Can you listen to someone else on the same channel or are there different spread spectrum codes you have to set for two radios to talk to each other?

 

[n1das]

Okay for the Motorola DTR and DRL 900 MHz radios, how crowded are the channels? You can get them with 2 channels, 6 channels or 20 channels. Can you listen to someone else on the same channel or are there different spread spectrum codes you have to set for two radios to talk to each other?

The DLR1020 has 2 channels.
The DLR1060 has 6 channels but radios manufactured after mid-2017 are expandable to 10 channels with the CPS.
The DTR600 has 30 channels and the DTR700 has 50 channels.
They all have more than enough channels because a channel can be configured in so many ways and can coexist with other DTRs and DLRs using the same hopset.

The channels are not crowded at all. One of the benefits of FHSS is that radios can coexist with other signals in the band without interference. The "channels" the end user sees are actually talkgroup IDs for the particular frequency hopset they use. By FCC rule (FCC 15.247) a frequency hopping device operating in the 902-928MHz must use a frequency hopset with a minimum of 50 frequencies and a maximum transmit power of 1W (+30 dBm). The DTRs and DLRs have 10 hopsets available. Frequency hopset #1 is the default. The radios use 50 frequencies across the entire 902-928MHz band when they transmit.

With how Motorola designed it, there are 100 public group IDs available on each hopset. Private talkgroups can also be configured for channels but requires programming with the CPS. The DLRs and the DTR 600/700 models also have a 4-digit Profile ID Number (PIN) feature which further modifies the hopping algorithm to make it easier to make channels secure. The PIN feature is a new feature which started with the DLRs and was carried forward to the DTR600/700 models. The older legacy DTR410/550/650 models don't have the PIN feature. The DLRs and DTR600/700 models are backward compatible with the legacy DTR410/550/650 models.

As for being able to listen to other DTRs and DLRs, yes you can, provided your DTR or DLR radio is set to the same frequency hopset, talkgroup ID, and Profile ID Number (for Profile ID mode channels). DTRs and DLRs will talk to each other right out of the box at the factory default settings so no programming is needed to get started with them. The 4-digit Profile ID Number feature makes it insanely easy to secure your channels from other DTR and DLR radios and doesn't require programming with the CPS. Customization of features and settings requires the Motorola Business Radio CPS and is a free download from Motorola. The CPS cable is around $35 on Amazon. No CPS is needed to use these radios right out of the box at the factory default settings.

I am finding people tend to use them right out of the box at the factory default settings like FRS bubble packs. I have monitored activity on the default public talkgroups ("channels") from time to time in my travels. The local Costco Wholesale near me uses DLR radios at the factory defaults and I hear them when in range. I have a set of customized channels in my radios in addition to the default channels so I can monitor the defaults and also have my secure channels.

When I was last down in FL on vacation, I had several GMRS radios with me and also brought along several DTRs. My wife and I and a friend used the DTRs exclusively for our local simplex chatter because they worked so well. We didn't bother with GMRS at all.

 

[belvdr]

I am finding people tend to use them right out of the box at the factory default settings like FRS bubble packs. I have monitored activity on the default public talkgroups ("channels") from time to time in my travels. The local Costco Wholesale near me uses DLR radios at the factory defaults and I hear them when in range. I have a set of customized channels in my radios in addition to the default channels so I can monitor the defaults and also have my secure channels.

When I was last down in FL on vacation, I had several GMRS radios with me and also brought along several DTRs. My wife and I and a friend used the DTRs exclusively for our local simplex chatter because they worked so well. We didn't bother with GMRS at all.

Is it possible to listen to the default configured radios on a scanner? My searches aren't finding anything.

 

[alcahuete]

Is it possible to listen to the default configured radios on a scanner? My searches aren't finding anything.

Absolutely not! That's the great thing about these radios; they absolutely cannot be monitored by a scanner. Helps to make them nice and secure.