New MPT system being used by Wyong Shire Council

[grant]

For those readers on the New South Wales Central Coast or Newcastle Region you will find that there is now a MPT control channel on 489.1250 with the transmitter site located at Ourimbah. It has been installed in the last month on one or more existing council frequencies. I noticed it active last week and it was definitely not there the previous month.

Opus and I were discussing this yesterday - we suspect it might be a MPT1343 system for monitoring Ourimbah Creek - the condition of which has highlighted in recent Federal Parliament "Question Time" sessions. It is likely to be a one or two channel system.

However it would be good to get any feedback from those in the area, as I am only up there about 2 or 3 days every month. These are the frequencies at the transmitter site at Ourimbah ... it is not known which if any other frequencies are related to the data channel. These are pre-existing frequencies allocated to Wyong Shire Council.

487.0250 / 481.8250
489.1250 / 483.9250 MPT control channel
490.8250 / 496.0250
491.8500 / 497.0500
492.0750 / 497.2750
494.3500 / 499.5500

Note:
487.0250 and 489.1250 are on the same licence number


Grant

 

[grant]

Wyong Shire Council

The Council MPT 1327 system is now active - December 2007

Data Channel = 489.125
Base appears to be 488.700Mhz

I logged 3 Voice channels over about 90 mins around Friday lunchtime on December 14 2007 despite it being inactive at the beginning of November 2007

I am fairly sure it is somehow connected (possibly by landline or link) to the VHF MPT1327 system in use by Gosford Council, which has also come active this month.

Ch: 170 490.825
Ch: 252 491.850
Ch: 270 492.075

12 users logged on Group (000)

For the occasion I used trunkview 2.1


Grant

 

[grant]

Gosford MPT 1327 system

As alluded to in the previous post Gosford Council has also now commissioned their VHF MPT1327 system - a strange system in that it is split between 150 and 162-164Mhz.

I found it not long after Wyong became active .... at the end of 2005

A search of Gosford Council minutes on the net found this entry for 17 and 24 May 2005

"Part C – A Trunked Radio Network
Trunk Radio is similar to but not the same as a mobile phone network. Radio has much greater coverage than that available for the mobile phone network, and is not subject to congestion during emergencies. These are both important considerations for Council
Field staff. Such a network will provide increased reliability and safety for our staff while at the same time greatly reducing mobile telephone costs. In an emergency situation, Council will have total control of its communications network and not have to rely on a
third party provider. This will be especially important in an emergency situation where the mobile telephone network may be overloaded or unavailable due to the nature of the emergency. As an example, a significant storm event or earthquake may affect the
mobile telephone network by physical damage or by generating sufficient congestion that the system becomes inoperable. By Council owning its own system, contingency plans can be set in place to keep these sites operating indefinitely during a power failure or
emergency. Our priorities for servicing the City may not be the same as service providers with a wider problem. We also gain the ability to provide interoperability with the Rural Fire Service (RFS) during a severe fire incident for the efficient co-ordination of resources.

Other advantages include:
• Greatly improved radio communications compared to our existing radio system with different levels of priority, including emergency calling - emergency calling is where all existing calls are terminated to clear a channel for communication.
• Efficient radio communications over a large geographic area.
• Cost effective infrastructure allowing both voice and data on the same system.
• Proficient management of people with the ability to organise radios into private one-to-one, fleet, and group calls.
• The future option of advanced voice and data dispatching programmes.
• Access to the power of the PABX network and its features and facilities free of charge.
• With Trunk Radio all calls from Council vehicles to Council vehicles, from Council vehicles to Council PABX extensions and from the PABX to Council vehicles are free. All calls from Council vehicles to non-Council phone numbers will be at Council's Corporate
Rate.
• A Duress Function. By pressing a button on the radio, an alarm can be sent indicating that the caller is under threat or an emergency exists.
• A radio system that will be subject to less frequent damage and loss than mobile phones. The estimated life of a radio is in excess of 6 years compared to 12 to 24 months for a mobile phone.

The Tender Evaluation panel agreed with the consultant's recommendation to rank Comgroup Australia as the preferred tenderer.

========================

On December 14, 2007 I was able to confirm that Gosford Council had activated their MPT1327 system as well.

150.3000Mhz is the Base frequency

Gosford is a split system - the split occurs above ch 74, which means that on the log data allowance has to be made for the split

150.3125 Ch 001 Voice/data Kincumber Mountain, Green Point
150.6125 Ch 025 Voice/data Kincumber Mountain, Green Point
150.9125 Ch 049 Voice Kincumber Mountain, Green Point
151.2250 Ch 074 Voice Kincumber Mountain, Green Point
162.4750 Ch 075 Voice/data Somersby
162.4875 Ch 076 Voice Boomerang Ridge
162.8250 Ch 103 Voice/data Somersby
163.7625 Ch 178 Voice Somersby
163.8375 Ch 184 Voice/Data Mangrove Mountain
163.9375 Ch 192 Voice Somersby
164.0625 Ch 202 Voice Somersby
164.2750 Ch 219 Voice/Data Mangrove Mountain
164.3375 Ch 224 Voice Boomerang Ridge


Voice channels in use
Ch: 049 150.9125
Ch: 074 151.2250
Ch: 075 162.4750
Ch: 178 163.7625
Ch: 202 164.0625

I estimate about 70-80 users over the 2 hrs I was listening to each - many of whom are using the 3 sites as they roam around the councul area. I found about 30 users coming up on Green Point and Somersby sites (unfortunately I can't hear Mangrove Mountain) from our Tuggerah Lakes weekender

Data channel sites in use
ID: 2389 Ch: 103 - Somersby
ID: 2391 Ch: 025 - Kincumber
ID: 23A1 Ch: 184 - Mangrove Mountain


Grant

 

[richardc63]

Hi Grant,

How silly... why spend money on a new MPT system when there are ample APCO25 vendors around? They will find over the life of the system, which should be at least 10 years, that the technology they are using will be rapidly superceded.

I also was surprised that whoever wrote the Council report missed what I think is the prime justification for such a system- open channel, all informed communications, something cellular still cannot do effectively.

Cheers,


Richard

As alluded to in the previous post Gosford Council has also now commissioned their VHF MPT1327 system - a strange system in that it is split between 150 and 162-164Mhz.

I found it not long after Wyong became active .... at the end of 2005

A search of Gosford Council minutes on the net found this entry for 17 and 24 May 2005

"Part C – A Trunked Radio Network
Trunk Radio is similar to but not the same as a mobile phone network. Radio has much greater coverage than that available for the mobile phone network, and is not subject to congestion during emergencies. These are both important considerations for Council
Field staff. Such a network will provide increased reliability and safety for our staff while at the same time greatly reducing mobile telephone costs. In an emergency situation, Council will have total control of its communications network and not have to rely on a
third party provider. This will be especially important in an emergency situation where the mobile telephone network may be overloaded or unavailable due to the nature of the emergency. As an example, a significant storm event or earthquake may affect the
mobile telephone network by physical damage or by generating sufficient congestion that the system becomes inoperable. By Council owning its own system, contingency plans can be set in place to keep these sites operating indefinitely during a power failure or
emergency. Our priorities for servicing the City may not be the same as service providers with a wider problem. We also gain the ability to provide interoperability with the Rural Fire Service (RFS) during a severe fire incident for the efficient co-ordination of resources.

Other advantages include:
• Greatly improved radio communications compared to our existing radio system with different levels of priority, including emergency calling - emergency calling is where all existing calls are terminated to clear a channel for communication.
• Efficient radio communications over a large geographic area.
• Cost effective infrastructure allowing both voice and data on the same system.
• Proficient management of people with the ability to organise radios into private one-to-one, fleet, and group calls.
• The future option of advanced voice and data dispatching programmes.
• Access to the power of the PABX network and its features and facilities free of charge.
• With Trunk Radio all calls from Council vehicles to Council vehicles, from Council vehicles to Council PABX extensions and from the PABX to Council vehicles are free. All calls from Council vehicles to non-Council phone numbers will be at Council's Corporate
Rate.
• A Duress Function. By pressing a button on the radio, an alarm can be sent indicating that the caller is under threat or an emergency exists.
• A radio system that will be subject to less frequent damage and loss than mobile phones. The estimated life of a radio is in excess of 6 years compared to 12 to 24 months for a mobile phone.

The Tender Evaluation panel agreed with the consultant's recommendation to rank Comgroup Australia as the preferred tenderer.

========================

On December 14, 2007 I was able to confirm that Gosford Council had activated their MPT1327 system as well.

150.3000Mhz is the Base frequency

Gosford is a split system - the split occurs above ch 74, which means that on the log data allowance has to be made for the split

150.3125 Ch 001 Voice/data Kincumber Mountain, Green Point
150.6125 Ch 025 Voice/data Kincumber Mountain, Green Point
150.9125 Ch 049 Voice Kincumber Mountain, Green Point
151.2250 Ch 074 Voice Kincumber Mountain, Green Point
162.4750 Ch 075 Voice/data Somersby
162.4875 Ch 076 Voice Boomerang Ridge
162.8250 Ch 103 Voice/data Somersby
163.7625 Ch 178 Voice Somersby
163.8375 Ch 184 Voice/Data Mangrove Mountain
163.9375 Ch 192 Voice Somersby
164.0625 Ch 202 Voice Somersby
164.2750 Ch 219 Voice/Data Mangrove Mountain
164.3375 Ch 224 Voice Boomerang Ridge


Voice channels in use
Ch: 049 150.9125
Ch: 074 151.2250
Ch: 075 162.4750
Ch: 178 163.7625
Ch: 202 164.0625

I estimate about 70-80 users over the 2 hrs I was listening to each - many of whom are using the 3 sites as they roam around the councul area. I found about 30 users coming up on Green Point and Somersby sites (unfortunately I can't hear Mangrove Mountain) from our Tuggerah Lakes weekender

Data channel sites in use
ID: 2389 Ch: 103 - Somersby
ID: 2391 Ch: 025 - Kincumber
ID: 23A1 Ch: 184 - Mangrove Mountain


Grant

 

[citylink_uk]

MPT has been out since 1988 and still hasn't been matched in terms of affordability and reliability in its field by other systems. MPT1327 radio's are also much cheaper than P25 radio's.

Rich

 

[richardc63]

MPT has been out since 1988 and still hasn't been matched in terms of affordability and reliability in its field by other systems. MPT1327 radio's are also much cheaper than P25 radio's.

Rich

Rich,

Affordability is a matter of opinion and totally dependent on what the buyer's objectives are. MPT is an analogue technology, innovative in 1988 but very out of date for a new system in 2007. Twenty years is many generations in technology terms- in 1988 Comgroup was Philips and selling crystal controlled FM814 bases. There was nothing wrong with FM814 bases, but the thought of purchasing a technology dating from the same era seems odd. Time moves on and in 2017 when this system should be nearing retirement it will be an anachronisym.

In terms of the radios being cheaper... well that isn't surprising since the functional benefits available on a current P25 radio far exceeds what is possible from an MPTradio.

Reliability depends on how the technology is implemented. You have no way of substantiating your claim...

You missed the point entirely. Investing in a large network is a long term investment that needs to be thought through on the basis of what is likely to meet the users needs, and be able to be supported & improved upon over the life of the investment. MPT is old, albeit proven, technology. There are more modern, and proven technologies, that are capable of the same reliabilty that would provide a better return for the investment being made. They WILL regret the decision in years to come because they have ignored the world around them- they will look quite silly when agencies such as the Rural Fire Service & others are all using P25 while they chugg along using MPT.

Cheers,


Richard

 

[citylink_uk]

The world recognises MPT and TETRA for wide area comms and at the moment P25 isn't that successful outside of Australia and the USA.

It can also be argued that P25 is old technology too; all 'protocols' start somewhere and evolve. To take MPT for example, manufacturers are now offering IP based infrastructure (£5 million order for Simoco's IP Xfin MPT 103 site system just been received for large utility company in UK).

The user may also be expecting a shorter life span out of its communications system and may recognise that a massive investment in P25 equipment may need to be in service for 20 years to recover the cost leaving it outdated. On the other hand, a cheaper system such as MPT1327 may be replaced in 10 years saving money in initial investment costs and allowing them to upgrade.

Councils generally don’t have the budgets to fund huge outlays at once so I imagine overall cost would have been a big factor in deciding who to award the contract to.

 

[grant]

Gosford and Wyong (but in particular the Gosford council area) has large sections of mountainous terrain within their boundaries.
The railway corridor between Hawkesbury River bridge and Woy Woy is notorious for non-existent communications.
Council services are required throughout including the remotest parts
Cost, the fact that the system is VHF friendly in mountainous terrain and offers a number of options obviously has clinched it
APCO-25 might be technologically superior in a variety of ways and seems to be the preferred technology system in security-orientated organisations (eg emergency services) but given that the police network still struggles with dead spots in Bravo (Gosford/Wyong) with 28 frequencies in simulcast use (eg Alison Rd Wyong, parts of Gosford CBD etc), I am not sure digital is a good choice if value for money is the main choice in 5-10 year technology window.
MPT1327 is also preferred by Gencom and Fettell along the Central Coast and North Coast and a number of vendors eg TAIT still supply MPT1327 equipment.

Grant

PS Telstra tendered on this contract.

 

[richardc63]

The world recognises MPT and TETRA for wide area comms and at the moment P25 isn't that successful outside of Australia and the USA.

It can also be argued that P25 is old technology too; all 'protocols' start somewhere and evolve. To take MPT for example, manufacturers are now offering IP based infrastructure (£5 million order for Simoco's IP Xfin MPT 103 site system just been received for large utility company in UK).

The user may also be expecting a shorter life span out of its communications system and may recognise that a massive investment in P25 equipment may need to be in service for 20 years to recover the cost leaving it outdated. On the other hand, a cheaper system such as MPT1327 may be replaced in 10 years saving money in initial investment costs and allowing them to upgrade.

Councils generally don’t have the budgets to fund huge outlays at once so I imagine overall cost would have been a big factor in deciding who to award the contract to.

Hi Rich,

I gather you are in the UK because your commentary just doesn't relate to Australia at all. TETRA is totally unsuited for "wide area" systems in Australia due to our sparse rural populations & huge area to cover- the very reason APCO25 is in fact suited for the Australian environment for wide area systems.

I don't see how you can compare P25 with MPT1327. Other than IP, which is a means of linking not a new communications protocol, what is the future of MPT1327? How will they improve its performance & features? On the other hand P25 is still evolving, with P25 Phase II providing further potential in the future.

In terms of cost, and this is more in response to Grant, the cost of APCO25 equipment is falling, partly through increased competition but also because of volume. That is something that will not happen in Australia with either TETRA or with a rapidly dying technology such as MPT.

I believe the company that won this particular contract may have some news in this regard in the New Year... but I better not make such an announcement on their behalf. All I will say is that it involves them being an important vendor of P25 base equipment in the future...

Local government in NSW is going through significant changes- they are becoming much larger & fewer in number. The need for interoperability with NSW government agencies becomes more important all the time- the direction of the NSW government is pretty obviously towards P25 so it makes no sense for a large council(s) on the edge of Sydney to head in a different decision. I can only put it down to a local vendor's influence (and he is a pretty good mate of mine!).

You make an interesting point re coverage Grant, but I am a bit concerned that the problems Police have had has been due to system engineering issues. We know that the introduction of digital modulation requires some changes in the way systems are designed. However Police had coverage problems on their analog systems so these problems are nothing new.

I'll happily make a little wager... this system will have a very short lifespan (less than 6-8 years) and they will be starting from scratch again soon. I only need think of other illconceived systems, like QuasiSynch in the Mountains & Warringah... this has a familiar ring to it!

Cheers,


Richard

 

[grant]

You mean this document

http://www.nccgr.org.au/reference-material/nccgr-stategic-plan-final-070913.doc/view


Grant

 

[richardc63]

You mean this document

http://www.nccgr.org.au/reference-material/nccgr-stategic-plan-final-070913.doc/view


Grant

Hi Grant,

Great link- thanks for putting it up. I had read it but I wasn't actually referring to it.

Vendors & major government clients in Australia are almost entirely pushing towards common spectrum & standards. For most that means P25 in the 380-430MHz band. Some still are supporting TETRA...

Stay tuned for Comgroup's new business acquisition and you will better understand why I'm saying Gosford have hopped onto a very tired horse.

The document also doesn't refer to a possibility that the 450-470MHz band will be refarmed for WCDMA in the future.

We are living in interesting times!


Cheers,


Richard

 

[citylink_uk]

Hi Rich,

I gather you are in the UK because your commentary just doesn't relate to Australia at all. TETRA is totally unsuited for "wide area" systems in Australia due to our sparse rural populations & huge area to cover- the very reason APCO25 is in fact suited for the Australian environment for wide area systems.

I don't see how you can compare P25 with MPT1327. Other than IP, which is a means of linking not a new communications protocol, what is the future of MPT1327? How will they improve its performance & features? On the other hand P25 is still evolving, with P25 Phase II providing further potential in the future.

In terms of cost, and this is more in response to Grant, the cost of APCO25 equipment is falling, partly through increased competition but also because of volume. That is something that will not happen in Australia with either TETRA or with a rapidly dying technology such as MPT.

I believe the company that won this particular contract may have some news in this regard in the New Year... but I better not make such an announcement on their behalf. All I will say is that it involves them being an important vendor of P25 base equipment in the future...

Local government in NSW is going through significant changes- they are becoming much larger & fewer in number. The need for interoperability with NSW government agencies becomes more important all the time- the direction of the NSW government is pretty obviously towards P25 so it makes no sense for a large council(s) on the edge of Sydney to head in a different decision. I can only put it down to a local vendor's influence (and he is a pretty good mate of mine!).

You make an interesting point re coverage Grant, but I am a bit concerned that the problems Police have had has been due to system engineering issues. We know that the introduction of digital modulation requires some changes in the way systems are designed. However Police had coverage problems on their analog systems so these problems are nothing new.

I'll happily make a little wager... this system will have a very short lifespan (less than 6-8 years) and they will be starting from scratch again soon. I only need think of other illconceived systems, like QuasiSynch in the Mountains & Warringah... this has a familiar ring to it!

Cheers,


Richard

Hi,

Yes I’m in the UK.

Now I understand your point about TETRA which I believe is only really suited to on-site and local systems due to the high infrastructure costs related to having to have so many bases.

I can see that P25 would be more suited to open remote regions but TETRA is one of the most up to date systems available. With P25 TDMA II perhaps 5 years or more away before it becomes affordable to Councils some more upgrading would need to happen to get the benefits.

That’s where MPT comes in, its easy to set up, the infrastructure is affordable, big names including Motorola, Kenwood, Icom, Tait, Entel & Simoco are still developing new subscriber equipment to work with the protocol and its Trunked. From what I’ve been reading, very few vendors are selling P25 trunked systems at the moment with notable exceptions being Motorola and relatively new EADS/Tait.

With regard to interoperability with P25, Simoco's new Xmode radios do Analogue FM, MPT1327, P25 Conv. & P25 trunked all in one with AES and DES encrypt.

Interesting stuff anyway...........