I believe the point he was trying to make is not that Ch 14 itself is new, but that with the recently completed DTV repack, there is a new DTV station on Ch 14 as of last year, which may or may not impact the WC system. His point is valid, a good full tropo cycle will reveal any issues with the relocated DTV station. The DTV repack has caused issues for other systems in the region that were previously unaffected by ducting, in particular the NYPD 48x frequencies on SI as well as some 500 frequencies with Somerset's TRS.
New P-25 Westchester trunked system
- Thread starter radioman2001
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902
Member
Just a technicality, Westchester, as well as parts of NJ and Long Island, use waivered Part 22 channels for their system. These frequencies were contiguous to Part 90, but were waivered over to public safety use in the NY metro area for specific applicants. That's even though most Part 22 operations were supplanted by cellular services. The FCC still protects those frequencies for non-existent users.
Before they were used in public safety, in the 80s (the Henry Brothers Electronics days) several of these frequencies were used by Charlie Sackermann in a T-Band IMTS system with the switch located in Alpine. The system was shut down because of this new thing called cellular telephone. The FCC never automatically reassigned these frequencies to public safety (or business -T-Band is a first-come/first-served, with a channel becoming PW or IB once the first licensee plants a flag on it, then a public safety applicant would need to waiver the business channel to use it for public safety).
See - FCC DA 04-2496 and DA 05-1767
The other thing is that there is a disconnect between the Media Bureau and the Public Safety Homeland Security bureaus at the FCC. There is no consideration for tropo from the FCC and all of their calculations are based on a K of 4/3 earth. You'll see a lot of T-Band systems cross-channel several frequencies, with 500 MHz and 477 MHz frequencies so the whole system won't crash if there's ducting.
Before they were used in public safety, in the 80s (the Henry Brothers Electronics days) several of these frequencies were used by Charlie Sackermann in a T-Band IMTS system with the switch located in Alpine. The system was shut down because of this new thing called cellular telephone. The FCC never automatically reassigned these frequencies to public safety (or business -T-Band is a first-come/first-served, with a channel becoming PW or IB once the first licensee plants a flag on it, then a public safety applicant would need to waiver the business channel to use it for public safety).
See - FCC DA 04-2496 and DA 05-1767
The other thing is that there is a disconnect between the Media Bureau and the Public Safety Homeland Security bureaus at the FCC. There is no consideration for tropo from the FCC and all of their calculations are based on a K of 4/3 earth. You'll see a lot of T-Band systems cross-channel several frequencies, with 500 MHz and 477 MHz frequencies so the whole system won't crash if there's ducting.
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Thank-you. Exactly @GTR8000. The past can be a good indicator of the future and this can actually be seen on this website. The website reveals what other channels propagate into the NY Metro area over great distances. Dig deep and you CAN find the dates and times TV14 HAS propagated in the vicinity of Weschester and beyond. What impact if any then or in the future I have no idea.
@902 does make a very point. Any T band system that uses multiple channels between 470-512 for FB2 would be a very good idea. If a system depends on a group of frequencies neatly picked within one range of a UHF TV channel, this could be problematic with Tropo.
I believe many system operators/ administrators have little or no idea of the significant underlying issues that Tropo does bring. Of course being intermittent and random makes it even more difficult to troubleshoot and understand.
Here is the website.
TV reception map
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902
Member
Thing is the region had little choice on what spectrum to use. Virtually every frequency either has someone on it, or adjacent to it precluding their use. The only way to get some of these channels extending them outside of their original region is by waiver, and the FCC still insists on protecting "ghost channels" even though the analog stations that were on the frequencies went dark over 10 years ago. Even in areas where the alternative TV channels were available, the only reason the interstitial channel became available was because the adjacents narrowbanded. If they didn't narrowband, the interstitial couldn't be coordinated. It's a mess.
That's why some of the systems migrating up to 700 seemed like a better deal - even with the Congressional give-back removed. Even then, in Region 8, there's a lot of voodoo to do in order to get a letter by the RPC. The radio system power levels and antenna patterns have to be designed so the significant amount of signal stays within 3 - 5 miles of the border. So... 6 of one, half-dozen of the other in terms of spectrum.
All those requirements might eventually be sending system managers toward Public Safety Telephone with Radio over LTE.
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Keep an eye on 15KW 1342’ MSL, RF CH 14 Red Lion Pa, the station may move to near Baltimore & (more over water). This move was recently approved by FCC I believe.
The following Channel 14 (470-476 MHZ) stations have propagated from time to time into Poughkeepsie NY (source rabbit ears.info). Anything is possible during tropo season. BOLO. From furthest to closest received in Poughkeepsie during tropo.
The following Channel 14 (470-476 MHZ) stations have propagated from time to time into Poughkeepsie NY (source rabbit ears.info). Anything is possible during tropo season. BOLO. From furthest to closest received in Poughkeepsie during tropo.
- WLAJ
- LANSING, MI
- RF channel 14
- WCMH-TV
- COLUMBUS, OH
- RF channel 14
- WRDC
- DURHAM, NC
- RF channel 14
- CHCH-2
- London, Ontario
- RF channel 14
- WNLO-CD
- NORFOLK, VA
- RF channel 14
- WPTZ
- PLATTSBURGH, NY
- RF channel 14
- WLZH-LD
- RED LION, PA
- RF channel 14
- WSYT
- SYRACUSE, NY
- RF channel 14
902
Member
148.7 miles to the Empire State Building. Probably no big deal 360 days out of the year, but I can only imagine how digital television will affect the inputs to SOD and the Citywides. Even closer to the "down'a shore" trunking systems that need the channel diversity. This is that disconnect between the media bureau and the PSHSB I was talking about. They're going to do what they're going to do, regardless of a higher acuity needs and the Commissioners won't step in because of the broadcast lobby. I don't have a lot of confidence that a 0.5 degree phasing downtilt will limit signal to the horizon adequately to prevent tropo. Just one guy's opinion.
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Well here is one TV 14 (WLZH) last tropo season as heard in Poughkeepsie (source rabbit ears.info. Clearly the path was over the NY Metro area. There are many others. Sometimes multiple paths exist through on entire an channel from more than one station. This can raise the RF floor significantly. Vodoo (I like it) RF coverage comes and goes. Ebbs and flows. Like chasing a ghost through the weeds. Captures control channel and smart radios are rendered dead. Five days a good guess @902.
BOLO.
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902
Member
Interesting chart. The only thing it doesn't show is the down-time for the CCH. I used to have the channel locked out for a few hours and then, when the tropo burns off, it would restore. I've never seen this kind of report, but the tool suite I had years ago wasn't very elaborate.
When there was a transition from PrivacyPlus to SmartNet, one of the biggest problems was that there was no feature to accommodate co-channel operations. They needed to have some form of color code or squelch system that allowed for co-channel operations rather than exclusivity.
Okay, so now that we've beaten the whole "Tropo ducting is going to annihilate all T-Band public safety!!!!" to death in this thread and others, how about an actual status report on the system itself...
The county is set to begin coverage testing the ASTRO 25 system next week. There are no P25 control channels currently on the air, but they may pop up next week. At the very least, a test pattern should come online for grid testing.
The county is set to begin coverage testing the ASTRO 25 system next week. There are no P25 control channels currently on the air, but they may pop up next week. At the very least, a test pattern should come online for grid testing.
2 Weeks later.....has anyone heard any new Control Channels come on the air yet?
radioman2001
Member
Somewhat of an update:
Testing was being done on one of existing channels in both North and South Zones, and they bought APX8000's.
When completed simulcast up to 19 sites 14 are in place as of now and there will be a single day hard cut over in November.
The 700 mhz system build out is on hold.
This is all right from West EOC.
Also West Co PD now as of Sept 10th or so P25 Phase I on F-1 155.310 Nac 154
Testing was being done on one of existing channels in both North and South Zones, and they bought APX8000's.
When completed simulcast up to 19 sites 14 are in place as of now and there will be a single day hard cut over in November.
The 700 mhz system build out is on hold.
This is all right from West EOC.
Also West Co PD now as of Sept 10th or so P25 Phase I on F-1 155.310 Nac 154
I assume This system is only going to be a replacement for the current Motorola type II smartzone used by bee line busses and 60-control? Or there’s plans to add local police depts as well?
Yes, it will be replacing the old SmartZone System. So, 60 Control and Bee line are moving to it. Apparently, they are going to add a few more 60 control talkgroups for the cities in southern Westchester, ie White Plains, New Ro, Mt Vernon, Yonkas, etc. There is a doc somewhere of the new proposed layout, check the website. I don't listen or care about the beeline busses so ill always have them locked out, but they did have plans to eventually invite Local Westchester PDs to the new system but I think that's not going to happen for a few years def after 60 Control is operating on it. 2026 was the last deadline I heard for that, but I could be wrong.
The WCDES website has PowerPoints and PDFs with this info, so if you want to understand more of where the progress is, that's where I looked. The Fire Advisory Board usually has a meeting quarterly, so I'm hoping for a better update at the end of Sept, but that meeting isn't even listed on the website.
Fire Advisory BoardI thought they were ditching 700 MHz and sticking with the existing T-Band? Or are you talking about a different system?
Control channels are on the air, system has been created.
Westchester County (P25) Trunking System, Westchester County, New York
Westchester County (P25) Trunking System Profile
www.radioreference.com
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radioman2001
Member
Talk groups from what I read out of a radio are all the same, they have combined Fire and EMS into one talk group per battalion using the Fire group numbers and added 3 more Fire/EMS talk groups again by battalion. There a multiple of "E" groups throughout all the VHF UHF and 700 bands, there are also MA groups with PD and WCPD VHF channels are listed.
Has anybody else noticed that the current Moto Type II Smart Zone System isn't doing very well anymore? It's not just on my end cuz I constantly hear 60 Control or apparatus in the field repeat to each other "Please repeat message". I mean that has always been happening for as long as I can remember, but it seems like a few transmissions on certain talk groups are severely degraded since Monday.
What VHF and 700 Bands? I thought the entire system was recycling the old UHF Freqs from the SmartZone System.
What VHF and 700 Bands? I thought the entire system was recycling the old UHF Freqs from the SmartZone System.
radioman2001
Member
Sorry I had to double post some info, my editing skills take time and I exceeded the time
Talk groups from what I read out of a radio are all the same for Hospitals, though they have combined Fire and EMS into one talk group per battalion (Maybe to handle calls easier) using the Fire group numbers and added 4 more Fire/EMS talk groups again by battalion now up to 23.
Fire/EMS 20 145
Fire/EMS 21 147
Fire/EMS 22 149
Fire/EMS 23 14B
Airport 14D
Hazmat 14F
Tech Rescue 151
Trunk OPS 1 153
Trunk OPS 2 155
Trunk OPS 3 157
Trunk OPS 4 159
Trunk OPS 5 15B
Trunk OPS 6 15D
MCI 1 913
MCI 2 915
SPCL Event 1 917
SPCL Event 2 919
SPCL Event 3 91B
SPCL Event 4 91D
WC INTEROP 1 907
WC INTEROP 2 909
WC INTEROP 3 90B
WC INTEROP 4 911
WCPD HOTLINE 185
There a multiple of "E" groups throughout all the VHF UHF and 700 bands, there are also Fed and NON_Fed Interops and local MA groups with PD plus WCPD VHF channels are listed.
I have not included PD for now.
Quote
" I thought they were ditching 700 MHz and sticking with the existing T-Band? "
From the horses mouth when I asked about the proposed 700 that was to replace the T-Band if taken back I was told that is on hold, but is planned for the future since Rockland, Orange, Putnam and Dutchess either have or are long planning to go 700 in future.
Quote
"What VHF and 700 Bands? I thought the entire system was recycling the old UHF Freqs from the SmartZone System."
As I have posted above all County mobile radios are APX8000's and have all bands, and have access beyond just the new P-II 470 system in the one package.
One other thing it appears that the new paging channels are in the T-band.
North Paging 1 470.900
North Paging 2 477.025
North Paging 3 477.075
South Paging 1 470.075
South Paging 2 470.100
South Paging 3 476.300
Talk groups from what I read out of a radio are all the same for Hospitals, though they have combined Fire and EMS into one talk group per battalion (Maybe to handle calls easier) using the Fire group numbers and added 4 more Fire/EMS talk groups again by battalion now up to 23.
Fire/EMS 20 145
Fire/EMS 21 147
Fire/EMS 22 149
Fire/EMS 23 14B
Airport 14D
Hazmat 14F
Tech Rescue 151
Trunk OPS 1 153
Trunk OPS 2 155
Trunk OPS 3 157
Trunk OPS 4 159
Trunk OPS 5 15B
Trunk OPS 6 15D
MCI 1 913
MCI 2 915
SPCL Event 1 917
SPCL Event 2 919
SPCL Event 3 91B
SPCL Event 4 91D
WC INTEROP 1 907
WC INTEROP 2 909
WC INTEROP 3 90B
WC INTEROP 4 911
WCPD HOTLINE 185
There a multiple of "E" groups throughout all the VHF UHF and 700 bands, there are also Fed and NON_Fed Interops and local MA groups with PD plus WCPD VHF channels are listed.
I have not included PD for now.
Quote
" I thought they were ditching 700 MHz and sticking with the existing T-Band? "
From the horses mouth when I asked about the proposed 700 that was to replace the T-Band if taken back I was told that is on hold, but is planned for the future since Rockland, Orange, Putnam and Dutchess either have or are long planning to go 700 in future.
Quote
"What VHF and 700 Bands? I thought the entire system was recycling the old UHF Freqs from the SmartZone System."
As I have posted above all County mobile radios are APX8000's and have all bands, and have access beyond just the new P-II 470 system in the one package.
One other thing it appears that the new paging channels are in the T-band.
North Paging 1 470.900
North Paging 2 477.025
North Paging 3 477.075
South Paging 1 470.075
South Paging 2 470.100
South Paging 3 476.300
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