New Paulding County System Digital?
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Check the emissions codes and see if they are for digital. Not always a giveaway.. as some systems are not listed for digital emissions, but are digital anyway.
Paulding County System
Dallas, Ga is digital 800 MHz. Current Paulding County is analog VHF with a little digital mixed in BUT.....
a new UHF MotoTRBO system has been approved for Paulding. The old VHF system will be kept as a backup for both fire and sheriff to keep their current ISO rating.
BOC Awards Radio System Contract - Dallas-Hiram, GA Patch
There is rumor that there is software that will decode this format that runs on Windows or Linux - no scanner yet though.
NG
Dallas, Ga is digital 800 MHz. Current Paulding County is analog VHF with a little digital mixed in BUT.....
a new UHF MotoTRBO system has been approved for Paulding. The old VHF system will be kept as a backup for both fire and sheriff to keep their current ISO rating.
BOC Awards Radio System Contract - Dallas-Hiram, GA Patch
There is rumor that there is software that will decode this format that runs on Windows or Linux - no scanner yet though.
NG
Paulding is going to a Mototrbo UHF system, very soon. In their infinite wisdom they're spending all that money on a proprietary system instead of regular P25. I'm currently in Rochester, NY, who has a series of conventional UHF P25 repeaters that work amazingly well. No reason to buy into proprietary standards, now they are stuck and forced to buy Motorola stuff, radios that are not even designed for public safety.
Paulding's problem (as someone who's been a subscriber on the Paulding system) isn't their radio system (though that needed upgrades) it's the fact that they have way too many units on the same channel, and way too few dispatchers...
....rant finished.
Paulding's problem (as someone who's been a subscriber on the Paulding system) isn't their radio system (though that needed upgrades) it's the fact that they have way too many units on the same channel, and way too few dispatchers...
....rant finished.
"The new radio system is necessary to comply with FCC regulations to narrow band signals. This would also enable the county to use its current system as a backup system, which officials said will lower the county’s ISO rating for fire service."
If the current VHF system will really no longer be usable after the Jan. 2013 narrowbanding deadline, then how could it still be a backup to the new UHF system? Unless the current system is already narrowband compliant (or could be after reprogramming) which throws out their reason for buying the new system.
BTW, the DSD Linux program to decode MotoTRBO is useless if it is encrypted.
If the current VHF system will really no longer be usable after the Jan. 2013 narrowbanding deadline, then how could it still be a backup to the new UHF system? Unless the current system is already narrowband compliant (or could be after reprogramming) which throws out their reason for buying the new system.
BTW, the DSD Linux program to decode MotoTRBO is useless if it is encrypted.
JRayfield
Member
You're repeating the same old 'misinformation' that's been spread all over the internet by people who don't know what they're talking about.
MOTOTRBO is based on DMR, which is a standard. DMR is is not proprietary. There are numerous companies now making DMR-compatible equipment. In fact, Harris just announced a line of DMR products and they are promoting them for small, rural public safety agencies.
And the MOTOTRBO radios (XPR-series) meet the same standards for durability, etc. as the XTS/XTL 'public safety' line of equipment.
John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
MOTOTRBO is based on DMR, which is a standard. DMR is is not proprietary. There are numerous companies now making DMR-compatible equipment. In fact, Harris just announced a line of DMR products and they are promoting them for small, rural public safety agencies.
And the MOTOTRBO radios (XPR-series) meet the same standards for durability, etc. as the XTS/XTL 'public safety' line of equipment.
John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
the problem I see is their choice of moving to UHF. NO ONE in Metro Atlanta uses UHF for public safety, so there goes any possibility of using VHF mutual aid channels with GSP, Cherokee, Bartow and Douglas county unless they implement patching or keep their existing radios. This is, unless someone introduces a DMR dual band radio that supports both VHF and UHF.
If they use MotoTRBO conventionally, then it's 100 percent compatible with Hytera, Harris and Vertex-Standard subscriber equipment so they aren't locked into paying Motorola their perpetual upgrade game they've slung on the Astro 25 community. If they are buying a Capacity Plus trunked system, than they are stuck with Motorola subscriber radios.
I think their choice was skewed by their vendor, who tried to sell them multi-band Astro 25 radios (APX7000's) at an OUTRAGEOUS price they could not afford. They could have easily expanded the Cobb Astro 25 system, as Douglasville city merged into it last year, and IMO, gotten Dallas to give up their single site Smartnet II which is destined for replacement anyway, and gone Astro 25. But their vendor was opposed to this.
They should have shopped around. Would have made better sense to stay on VHF, go DMR/NexEDGE or narrowband analog, to maintain interoperability with the counties that abut them, or expanded the Cobb P25 system.
Now they get to join Jackson county with their choice of the UHF band.
Don't get me wrong, UHF would have actually been a better choice than 700/800 for metro Atlanta (we all used to be on UHF conventional in ATL/DEKALB/GWC/COBB back in the 1970's through the early 1990's) but 800MHz what was Motorola was pushing in the 80's and 90's, and we see how all that went down since.
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
CapacityPlus and Connect Plus are indeed proprietary John, or did you miss that little trademark indicator?
If they go straight conventional TRBO, great- but the two versions of the RFP say CapacityPlus trunking, so it is indeed proprietary. Unless you can tell me how to program my Hytera PD782G on CP...or Vertex, or Harris DMR for that matter.
The misinformation is actually what their vendor has led them to believe. I was standing there when their vendor said "yeah...it's digital, you can talk to Cobb, Atlanta, etc"
I was also there, in person, when the same vendor quoted us $13k for an APX... I would be shocked if they didn't get locked into Motorola gear.
And btw, those standards don't mean crap. Those of us who have relied our lives on a radio to put out a 63 call see a pretty big difference between XPR series toys and XTS/APX series.
Funny thing is.....Paulding just replaced their system about 3 years ago. Same vendor on the old system, current system AND newly chosen system. Old system as M3, not sure what the new is but still analog VHF. Now they are stuck with a UHF system that will not commucate easily (note EASILY) with other counties VHF systems.
NG
NG
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
what's really troubling is ONCE AGAIN, a North Georgia agency falls under the spell of a single source vendor and does ZERO research, ZERO independent consulting, and no open RFP's and just signs a check and taxpayers get the screw put to them.
Paulding should either have stuck with VHF, narrowbanded, use the additional frequencies they applied for an got, and either stayed analog, gone P25 VHF (YES, IT CAN BE DONE! and for much less than you think
), or built out their NexEDGE or DMR system on VHF. Or, worked with the city of Dallas and Cobb county to expand the Cobb DTRS, or WARRS. And they didn't have to buy Motorola radios either, if they would have asked me, I could have given them an entire list of vendors, drawn up an RFP for FREE that would given them a choice of Motorola, Harris, Cassidian/EADS, and Kenwood for infrastructure and subscriber radios. All of them would have met P25 phase I standards, and this means grants could have been applied for so they don't have to raise taxes to pay for it.
But no, that didn't happen. Because this went down the way it always does, with the good old' boy system of back scratching, it's just the way we do things down her in Gawga...and inter government cooperation? Ha ha! Go read Darryl's story about walnuts I posted a while back.
So wonder how it's gonna work out when they run out of rope on their UHF TRBO system and can't talk to Cobb, can't talk to Douglas, can't talk to GSP, Cherokee, or anyone else when PCSO or Hiram PD gets in a 10-80?
oh wait, I am sure DEI will program their UHF TRBO ESMR so they can raise the local mexicab or concrete company for backup.:roll:
Paulding should either have stuck with VHF, narrowbanded, use the additional frequencies they applied for an got, and either stayed analog, gone P25 VHF (YES, IT CAN BE DONE! and for much less than you think
), or built out their NexEDGE or DMR system on VHF. Or, worked with the city of Dallas and Cobb county to expand the Cobb DTRS, or WARRS. And they didn't have to buy Motorola radios either, if they would have asked me, I could have given them an entire list of vendors, drawn up an RFP for FREE that would given them a choice of Motorola, Harris, Cassidian/EADS, and Kenwood for infrastructure and subscriber radios. All of them would have met P25 phase I standards, and this means grants could have been applied for so they don't have to raise taxes to pay for it.But no, that didn't happen. Because this went down the way it always does, with the good old' boy system of back scratching, it's just the way we do things down her in Gawga...and inter government cooperation? Ha ha! Go read Darryl's story about walnuts I posted a while back.
So wonder how it's gonna work out when they run out of rope on their UHF TRBO system and can't talk to Cobb, can't talk to Douglas, can't talk to GSP, Cherokee, or anyone else when PCSO or Hiram PD gets in a 10-80?
oh wait, I am sure DEI will program their UHF TRBO ESMR so they can raise the local mexicab or concrete company for backup.:roll:
JRayfield
Member
Not sure why someone would quote $13,000 for an APX. I'm an MR, so have full access to all pricing. I just went through the price list and added up everything that I could put on that radio and you could get into the $9000 to $10,000 range, but not $13,000. And that's MSRP. Most states are going to have some kind of state contract pricing, which can shave around 20% to 25% off of the MSRP price, in some cases.
So, I guess you view the HT1250 as a 'toy', too?
John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
So, I guess you view the HT1250 as a 'toy', too?
John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
JRayfield
Member
I never said anything about Capacity Plus or Connect Plus. Yes, the trunking systems are proprietary. But DMR is not.
John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
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The HT1250, or better yet, what we used on the Paulding system, the HT1550XLS are horrible for public safety. They're fine for "organizations" as Motorola puts it on their page, or for HAMs, but they're not good enough for public safety. The fact that I could stand on Nebo Rd and barely make it in, where a dispatcher couldn't understand me on the HT1550XLS, but I'd get in full quieting on an old HT1000 or XTS5000 aught to tell you something.
See, the difference is, most people believe marketing, then there are those of us who have been in a fight with someone and figured out the hard way that getting out on a system versus not getting out, is a bit more serious than a discussion on radio reference or Batlabs.
See, the difference is, most people believe marketing, then there are those of us who have been in a fight with someone and figured out the hard way that getting out on a system versus not getting out, is a bit more serious than a discussion on radio reference or Batlabs.
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
Paulding county is not buying a straight up TRBO repeater, so they aren't getting a non-proprietary DMR system.
JRayfield
Member
Then, yes, I conceed, they are getting a proprietary system. You win this one.
John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
John Rayfield, Jr. CETma
JRayfield
Member
There definitely can be differences in the 'radiation efficiency' of different portables, even between different models from the same brand (although I've found that this is much more unusual as compared to differences between different brands).
As to the HT1250's performance versus the other radios, I haven't seen, or heard, of any such differences from anyone that I deal with personally (and I have customers who are using HT1250's, HT1000's, and XTS2500's). There are literally many thousands of HT1250's in use, in law enforcement and fire service and there are many such users who would not agree with your opinion that these make a "horrible" radio for public safety use.
I'm glad you like the XTS5000, but there are MANY public safety agencies who can't afford these radios. They either have to use lower cost radios or use nothing at all.
It appears that you are in a large metropolitan area - Atlanta - is that correct?
John Rayfield, Jr. CET-ma
As to the HT1250's performance versus the other radios, I haven't seen, or heard, of any such differences from anyone that I deal with personally (and I have customers who are using HT1250's, HT1000's, and XTS2500's). There are literally many thousands of HT1250's in use, in law enforcement and fire service and there are many such users who would not agree with your opinion that these make a "horrible" radio for public safety use.
I'm glad you like the XTS5000, but there are MANY public safety agencies who can't afford these radios. They either have to use lower cost radios or use nothing at all.
It appears that you are in a large metropolitan area - Atlanta - is that correct?
John Rayfield, Jr. CET-ma
MTS2000des
5B2_BEE00 Czar
the Pro Series was a technical abortion and what happens when you outsource your manufacturing to China.
Numerous problems plagued the series. I used to maintain a fleet of HT1250LS+. CDM1250LS+. and HT1550XLS UHF for an EMS provider.
Sent many into the depot. Many had hum on audio, broken displays, problems with the universal connectors.
Side by side with lower priced Kenwood TK-3140's which were acquired to supplement and replace the Pro series, the Kenwood's hands down had better sensitivity, selectivity, battery life, audio quality, and not ONE ever went into service. The 3140 is hardly a PS radio but yet it outperformed and outlasted any of the Pro series radios.
You're right John, some radios are better then others. Having a proper matching network and counterpoise is everything on a portable radio. There were many problems with the antenna matching circuits in earlier (pre 2004) Waris VHF boards. Everyone at a nearby agency I worked at got replaced at the depot or our local MSS at some point because of it.
Because Motorola has given up on selling decent analog mid-tier radios and instead pushing MotoTRBO and APX, it's the reason why KENWOOD is taking much of their business. I know of several counties in West Georgia who will be quick to show the door to any Motorola salesman because of the companies' attitude and pricing structure. Kenwood, OTOH, seems to get it: sell a decent radio at a fair price, support it well, and customers will come to you.
Paulding county is considered part of the metro Atlanta area, why they would choose a system that is not compatible with ANY other metro agency makes me shake my head. At least with VHF, they would maintain end-to-end interoperability on mutual aid channels with every other metro agency, as VHF radios are in many PD cars and required in all rescue vehicles.
They had an opportunity to join one of two large 700/800MHz P25 trunked systems, and could have applied for an gotten grant money to defray most of the cost, had they asked. But NO, it's follow the pied piper of a vendor who is more concerned with closing a quick sale.
Numerous problems plagued the series. I used to maintain a fleet of HT1250LS+. CDM1250LS+. and HT1550XLS UHF for an EMS provider.
Sent many into the depot. Many had hum on audio, broken displays, problems with the universal connectors.
Side by side with lower priced Kenwood TK-3140's which were acquired to supplement and replace the Pro series, the Kenwood's hands down had better sensitivity, selectivity, battery life, audio quality, and not ONE ever went into service. The 3140 is hardly a PS radio but yet it outperformed and outlasted any of the Pro series radios.
You're right John, some radios are better then others. Having a proper matching network and counterpoise is everything on a portable radio. There were many problems with the antenna matching circuits in earlier (pre 2004) Waris VHF boards. Everyone at a nearby agency I worked at got replaced at the depot or our local MSS at some point because of it.
Because Motorola has given up on selling decent analog mid-tier radios and instead pushing MotoTRBO and APX, it's the reason why KENWOOD is taking much of their business. I know of several counties in West Georgia who will be quick to show the door to any Motorola salesman because of the companies' attitude and pricing structure. Kenwood, OTOH, seems to get it: sell a decent radio at a fair price, support it well, and customers will come to you.
Paulding county is considered part of the metro Atlanta area, why they would choose a system that is not compatible with ANY other metro agency makes me shake my head. At least with VHF, they would maintain end-to-end interoperability on mutual aid channels with every other metro agency, as VHF radios are in many PD cars and required in all rescue vehicles.
They had an opportunity to join one of two large 700/800MHz P25 trunked systems, and could have applied for an gotten grant money to defray most of the cost, had they asked. But NO, it's follow the pied piper of a vendor who is more concerned with closing a quick sale.
Actually, as I said earlier, I was a subscriber unit on the Paulding VHF system in PD category. Also, I've been on trunks...
Aside from the RF portion of things, the build quality also makes a big difference. And as far as cost, I totally agree, I'm not saying you HAVE to get XTS / APX class radios from Motorola. What I'm saying is agencies should not get locked into having to purchase from Motorola, or any manufacturer for that matter. There is nothing wrong with a simple P25 conventional system. Had Paulding went to a P25 VHF system, or expanded the Cobb P25 system, it would have been much better. On the Cobb DTRS, they could have used the cheaper EF Johnsons instead of APX's...
Either way, beyond all that, there are bigger issues in Paulding than the radio technology. Unfortunately, MotoTRBO won't fix the lack of dispatchers, training, and units.
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