New RCMP Radio System in Newfoundland

[Selophane]

It seems the RCMP in my area (southern Newfoundland) have moved to a new radio communications system from their older VHF setup (on 155.580). All that I have managed to find so far is some activity on 163.350, which is usually only 1 side of a conversation, either just dispatch, just and officer, or on rare occasions, both. It seems just as an officer of dispatch keys up, there is a warp in the audio at first, followed by their audio in plain analog, then after they unkey, a series of 5 evenly spaced beeps of the same tone (atleast they sound the same) are heard. It also seems that if the other end of the convo doesn't transmit until after the beeps, you can hear them, otherwise it's just the one end, but if the end transmitting transmits again before the beeps have fully carried out, u can still hear them as they cut off the beeps???

Any further information on similar systems currently in use by the RCMP is very much appreciated as I have no clue if i'm just picking up a harmonic of the actual frequency, or if it is one of the ones they are actually using, I have tried scanning neighbouring frequencies, but no luck thus far. I do have an audio clip available of some of their communications, I'll upload it as an attachment later if anyone would like to listen.

Cheers,
Chris

*UPDATE* Added the audio file, it's in Ogg Vorbis format, Winamp plays it fine.

 

[SCPD]

That's the EDACS format. Is there a data channel that you can find within the same spectrum area?

S

 

[Selophane]

Thank you for your prompt response.

I have not found any control channels other than the cellular one on 880.590 (might be 880.5750 according to a signal generator/monitor i have here), and what seem to be just harmonics of that frequency (including 422.3950) since both sound relatively the same. Do you have any suggestions as to what some possible control channels would be for this EDACS system?

Thanks again,
Chris

 

[SCPD]

Well I really do find it funny/odd that the RCMP is using 163 MHz.. In Canada this really isn't the way things work in terms of spectrum allocation for public safety --- Unless they're guests on another system.

Also, maybe you're receiving an image. Search 138 - 144 MHz, and see if you can find these same comm's there. (It's usually 21.4 MHz lower).. This is why you hear cell phone interference on 851-869, on double conversion scanners.

Since it's EDACS, and analog, you'll be able to monitor that system no problem with a trunk tracker like the BC245 or newer.

VERY strange that the RCMP is on EDACS. They've been switching to Motorola ASTRO systems pretty much everywhere in Canada. I believe in BC (mainland area) they're using EDACS, but I'm not positive.

S

 

[Selophane]

Once again, thank you for your quick reply.

I have been scanning that 138-144 range for awhile now and still nothing, I'll continue scanning though, and it does seem the tones com through pretty clear and can be picked up clearly from a great distance for it to be considered just an image of the real frequency, but anything is possible i guess. Also, I have a friend who says it doesn't have any characteristics that would specifically identify it as an EDACS system, what is your take on this? What part of the audio lets you know its EDACS? And Could I use one of those interfaces shown on this site to decode the control channel (if I ever find it) with my PC and find out their other frequencies that way?
Thanks again, we'll soon have this figured out !

Still Scanning,
Chris

 

[SCPD]

There are three EDACS characteristics I picked off from your audio file:

1. Beginning of transmission has a data burst identical to the EDACS data burst.

2. There is LSD (Low Speed Data) present during the transmission. You can hear it (low frequency audio rumbling) if you listen close enough. It is NOT DCS/DPL data.

3. There are 5 high frequency beeps at the end of the transmission. This is typical of Ericsson to piss off scanner folk with conventional scanners. It's only purpose is to cause your scanner not to kick into "sound squelch" mode (2005, 2006) and move onto the next frequency with voice traffic. On some systems, the five beeps are replaced with a music jingle which sings "GE brings the best to life!".

I'm by no means an EDACS buff, so perhaps someone else wants to critique it from here. I'm 99.999999999% confident you're hearing an EDACS system.

S

 

[Selophane]

Ah, thanks for the heads up on EDACS. After reviewing the audio again with the equalizer tweaked to bring out the background noise, I can hear the LSD you are speaking of, sounds like packet.

I put 163.3500 into my signal generator/monitor and it does seem to be pretty well on that frequency, which would seem odd for it to be an image, since it is so perfectly on that frequency, still no sign of other frequencies with their activity though, the search continues.

-Chris

 

[SCPD]

Here's the assignments for NFLD on 163.35:

Tx Rx Location Licensee
155.5200 163.3500 ST.JOHN'S NF (SHEA HGTS.) INDUSTRY CANADA
157.4400 163.3500 IOCC, CONCENTRATOR CONTROL ROOM. IRON ORE COMPANY O
157.4400 163.3500 LABRADOR CITY,LAB. (ROUND HILL) TOWN OF LABRADOR C
157.4400 163.3500 TOWN DEPOT, LABRADOR CITY, NF. TOWN OF LABRADOR C
157.4400 163.3500 TOWN HALL, LABRADOR CITY, NFLD. TOWN OF LABRADOR C
163.3500 155.5200 ST.JOHN'S NF (SHEA HGTS.) INDUSTRY CANADA
163.3500 157.4400 IOCC, CONCENTRATOR CONTROL ROOM. IRON ORE COMPANY O
163.3500 157.4400 LABRADOR CITY,LAB. (ROUND HILL) TOWN OF LABRADOR C
163.3500 157.4400 TOWN DEPOT, LABRADOR CITY, NF. TOWN OF LABRADOR C
163.3500 157.4400 TOWN HALL, LABRADOR CITY, NFLD. TOWN OF LABRADOR C
163.3500 168.0600 CORNER BROOK (BATCH PLANT), NF. ATLANTIC READY MIX
163.3500 168.0600 CORNER BROOK,OFFICE RIVERSIDE DR,NF ATLANTIC READY MIX
163.3500 168.0600 MICROWAVE HILL(CMC SITE),C.BROOK,NF ATLANTIC READY MIX
168.0600 163.3500 CORNER BROOK (BATCH PLANT), NF. ATLANTIC READY MIX
168.0600 163.3500 CORNER BROOK,OFFICE RIVERSIDE DR,NF ATLANTIC READY MIX
168.0600 163.3500 MICROWAVE HILL(CMC SITE),C.BROOK,NF ATLANTIC READY MIX


Here's the link to search:

http://neon.polkaroo.net/~darkwing/tafl/

You can also play with IC's own website:

http://sd.ic.gc.ca/engdoc/main.jsp

Good luck. Let us know what you come up with.

Oh and one final question! Do you hear ALL communications on the same frequency, or do you feel you're missing some replies? This is indicative there are more trunking freqs.

S

 

[Selophane]

Thanks for the frequency list, I have been to that site and searched the TAFL database before, but it does not carry public services frequencies, like that of fire dept, and police, so it doesn't help in this case.

And yes, it is as though i'm missing out on replies, as stated in my original post, i can't hear other side if they key up before the end of the 5 beeps, and also there seems to be a decrease in the activity on that frequency compared to when they were on 155.580 and were very active, since it was the only frequency they used and leads me to believe once again that there are several frequencies in this new system they are using, however still no sign of a control channel for such a trunk system.

-Chris

 

[scnnr]

control channel samples

Hi Selophane

When you are doing your frequency range searches and if you find a control channel, take a listen at the samples of different control channels at this site. Scroll down about half way to find the Motorola and EDACS samples.

http://www.kb9ukd.com/digital/

Randy

 

[bcradio]

Hey Shaun.

They are indeed using an 800 MhZ EDACS system in the lower mainland, Vancouver area for day to day dispatch. Although there is much RCMP/Federal activity on VHF ASTRO repeaters utilizing AES :-(

 

[DaveH]

3. There are 5 high frequency beeps at the end of the transmission. This is typical of Ericsson to piss off scanner folk with conventional scanners. It's only purpose is to cause your scanner not to kick into "sound squelch" mode (2005, 2006) and move onto the next frequency with voice traffic. On some systems, the five beeps are replaced with a music jingle which sings "GE brings the best to life!".

S

Incorrect. The beeps are a timeout sequence on the voice channel. If another unit comes in before the timeout, the message continues on the same channel. If I recall (from the manual read over a dozen years back...) it's a 1-0-1-0- sequence at 9600bps called a "dotting sequence".

When these systems are designed, it's not always about "us". Those so-called EDACS "anti-scanner" tones serve some other function, something to do with contention on the control channel (or preventing it?), I just can't lay hands on the info.

Dave

 

[Selophane]

Thank you all for all the great information!

scnnr, I'm listening to those examples on the site you posted but haven't come across a frequency thats similar to it other than one in the cellular band on 887.070 which is like a large vibrating hum.

DaveH, just wondering about the beeps, cuz the other side of the convo is certainly keying up before the end of the tones, but u can't hear them on that frequency, unless they don't key up until after the beeps, however which ever end you heard on the frequency first can be heard again, breaking the beeping sequence when they key up if they do so before the 5 beeps fully carry out, or even after the beeps are finished.

Just wanted to know your thoughts on that, thanks again, lots of great help here ;-)

-Chris

 

[DaveH]

DaveH, just wondering about the beeps, cuz the other side of the convo is certainly keying up before the end of the tones, but u can't hear them on that frequency, unless they don't key up until after the beeps, however which ever end you heard on the frequency first can be heard again, breaking the beeping sequence when they key up if they do so before the 5 beeps fully carry out, or even after the beeps are finished.

-Chris

I'm confused by your description...you seem to be saying two different things. The way it usually works is keying up before the end of the beeps keeps the conversation on the same channel, otherwise it gets re-assigned to the next channel (which you haven't found). Is that correct?

Also, what kind of receiver are you using?

Dave

 

[RBerezowski]

Here's the assignments for NFLD on 163.35:

Tx Rx Location Licensee
155.5200 163.3500 ST.JOHN'S NF (SHEA HGTS.) INDUSTRY CANADA
163.3500 155.5200 ST.JOHN'S NF (SHEA HGTS.) INDUSTRY CANADA

I would check out 155.520 for activity related to this. This is an odd listing in the database, and what I think is that although it shows as Industry Canada it represents something else. It may be a dummy licence used for an interference study for a proposed public safety licencee, perhaps RCMP. Regardless of what it is, 155.520 is worth investigating.

Rob

 

[Selophane]

DaveH, sorry if I seem to contradict myself, but most of the time, u cannot hear the other side of a conversation, especially if the other side keys up before the beeps are over it seems, altho as I said previously, this is only an assumption, but i rarely can hear both sides of the conversation I can state as fact.
I am using an Icom IC-W2A handheld mainly for scanning since it can cover such a wide range, VHF, UHF, 800 and 900mhz, and many places in between.


RBerezowski, i have scanned the 155 band several times and have heard nothing since they moved from 155.580. No evidence so far of activity on 155.520 when 163.350 is active.

Thanks again for all the feedback, let me know if you need anymore info or have anymore to give, i'm determined to find out what they are using here for the RCMP system.

-Chris

 

[moonbounce]

What kind of antenna does the RCMP car have? Anything in the 138MHZ to 174Mhz is going to have a long antenna. Anything over 410Mhz will be your givaway, in that the higher the frequency the smaller the antenna.

 

[DaveH]

Anything over 410Mhz will be your givaway, in that the higher the frequency the smaller the antenna.

Not necessarily. A 1/4-wave antenna on UHF will be 4-6" and on VHF up to about 20", but a gain antenna on UHF could be (roughly) 24-30"; so the higher-frequency one is longer (although it has more gain).

Dave

 

[Selophane]

Sorry I haven't checked in lately, I've been a bit busy, but I can't say I've been able to get close enough to a squad car to checkout it's antenna length. However I can confirm they have a analog and digital system, today I heard one officer on 163.350 say "10-4, I meant digital-3" then all following transmissions for the following few minutes on that frequency (the only one I can find so far that they are on) was all digital. I would assume this must be some different channels they have, some analog, some digital, or someone else I know suggested it's different talk groups.

Further guidance on this is once again very much appreciated, hopefully in the not too distant future I can get near a squad car or dispatch with a frequency counter.

-Chris

 

[OntarioScannerNut]

Are you anywhere near Labrador City?

157.440000 163.350000 LABRADOR CITY, NF. TOWN OF LABRADOR CITY

Maybe they've got some good high grade cement they're making out there and don't want anyone to know about. I notice that alot of Cement companies are also using that same frequency.

Sorry I haven't checked in lately, I've been a bit busy, but I can't say I've been able to get close enough to a squad car to checkout it's antenna length. However I can confirm they have a analog and digital system, today I heard one officer on 163.350 say "10-4, I meant digital-3" then all following transmissions for the following few minutes on that frequency (the only one I can find so far that they are on) was all digital. I would assume this must be some different channels they have, some analog, some digital, or someone else I know suggested it's different talk groups.

Further guidance on this is once again very much appreciated, hopefully in the not too distant future I can get near a squad car or dispatch with a frequency counter.

-Chris