New to radios, new to Hytera. Need help with deployment

[phadobas]

Hello everybody.
At my organization, I've been tasked to research and implement a radio system that will be used for day-to-day work, but most importantly, we can fall back on this system in the event of hurricane preparations and getting through them.
I've been in telecom / IT for 20 years, but never dealt with radios. So I spent 1.5 months studying up on the subject and discussing things with vendors of all manufacturers. At the beginning I was open to any manufacturer, but by now, I've settled with and budgeted a Hytera system with 200 pd562 radios and 2 repeaters in XPT mode. I'm expecting to get the "go-ahead" in 2-3 weeks. I want to continue to learn and be ready when I get the green light to know what my next actions will be.
This is a downtown campus environment in Florida, with 90% of the operation within less than a mile. I have 2 smaller properties about a mile away, and a warehouse about 4 miles away. A test repeater was set up and I got 2 test radios from a vendor to check coverage. I got all main buildings covered, top-to-bottom. Most of the outer properties also had coverage, sometimes I had to g close to a window.
The radios will be deployed for maintenance crew, vehicle fleet, hotel operations. It looks like I'll have close to 20 groups.
My questions are
- what's next?
- what are best practices to design talk-groups?

I don't know what else should I ask, but I feel like I should now more on this - especially now that I'll be ready to purchase.
I'm getting the programming software and cable for the repeater and the radios. I'll set up monitoring of the repeaters over the network also.

Oh yes, one question. The pd562 radios can do XTP, but only for single site, not multisite. How would you define multi-site as opposed to single-site?
The reason I'm asking this is because I may put a repeater in the warehouse just to cover all bases in terms of coverage, but I'm not sure how would this fit into this whole setup.

 

[N4KVE]

Since you’re spending lot’s of $ with your vendor, shouldn’t they be doing all of this? Tell them what you want, & they will program it all.

 

[TampaTyron]

I recommend a few things (not just Hyterra, I do these things on my Moto deployments):

-Separate user groups by group ID (Maintenance is 3xxx, Security 2xxx, Ops 1xxx, etc)
-Disable any function/button on the radio that you are not using. The users WILL press every button and change menu settings if given the chance.
-Password protect everything.
-Document everything in the codeplugs, antennas, coax, lightning protection, etc in an Excel or word document.
-Document coverage in whatever capacity you can. This can be later compared in case system performance decreases.
-Test program a handful of radios prior to full deployment.
-Leave room in the plan for at least 2 additional increases in scale (more radios, repeaters, sites, etc). Think ahead.

I am sure there is more, but I am usually $250/hr. So, this is a free sample. TT

 

[phadobas]

N4KVE: I have a good vendor, he said he will program whatever I want. Problem is, I don't have experience on this, so I don't know what I want. And then I'll ask him something stupid, only to find out when we start using the radios that they should have been programmed in some other way and I can re-program half the radios.

TampaTyron: thanks for the advices. Very useful. Especially on the disabling of buttons and password protecting everything.

 

[N4KVE]

Dup.

 

[N4KVE]

N4KVE: I have a good vendor, he said he will program whatever I want. Problem is, I don't have experience on this, so I don't know what I want. And then I'll ask him something stupid, only to find out when we start using the radios that they should have been programmed in some other way and I can re-program half the radios.

TampaTyron: thanks for the advices. Very useful. Especially on the disabling of buttons and password protecting everything.

Your vendor should be experienced. You tell him what needs to be done, & he programs the radios appropriately. Just last week I loaned my Dad whose 88 years old an XTS3000..I too blanked all the side buttons, & switches, so he couldn’t push a button by accident.

 

[TampaTyron]

Typically, a customer describes the behavior they want the radio system to perform. Something like "mobile coverage for xxx county" or "in-building coverage for xxx campus" and then channel naming and then any roaming behavior between sites. For example, a customer in South Florida just deployed a multi site UHF DMR system. All the sites had the same amount of repeaters with more than enough capacity. But, specific talkgroups belonging to specific political entities were only allowed on particular sites, regardless of coverage needs. This goes against good radio practice of giving the users the best possible coverage, but the rules are the rules (guys/gals paying the bill said it will be this specific way). Additionally, any button behavior (scan, emergency, revert) is then addressed. I strongly recommend disabling everything on user radios and relying on push to talk and let go to listen methodology. In your technician/maintainer radios you can set up fun things like inhibit, scan, etc. I try to keep the users away from the radio manual that describes what the radio can "do". But, reprogramming several thousand radios over the air because you misspelled a couple of channel names is cool too............TT

 

[mmckenna]

You didn't mention it, so I'll bring it up: Make sure your employer is properly licensed for the frequencies.
I'm sure your vendor is on this, but in the past some vendors have been known to cut corners and skip the licensing. It'll be on your employer if they don't do this. FCC won't care about intent.

Not sure what your application is, but here's what I can add from running trunked systems for 20 years…

Set up a key on the radios that lock the panel buttons and channel/talk group knob. This will make your life easier. It can be easy for a radio to get bumped and the channel to get changed. You'll get complaints about "radio system not working" and it'll drive you nuts, often the end user just gets off on the wrong channel.

Beware the scan function. Scan can be useful in -some- application, it can be a pain in others. Limit scanning as much as you can.

Inventory the heck out of your radios. Make sure you know who has them, where they are, how they are set up, etc. Eventually they'll need adjustments or reprogramming, and being able to track all them down will be important. Also, if the system is trunked, you'll want to be able to disable lost/stolen radios.

Make sure the vendor sets up unique radio ID's for all the radios. Make sure they provide a list of radio ID's matched to serial numbers.

Make sure -you- get a programming cable and software as part of the package. You'll want the ability to reprogram radios at some point. Paying the vendor to do it can get very expensive.

Do NOT, under any circumstances, let the vendor set a read, write or read/write password on YOUR radios without sharing it with you. Vendors will sometimes lock the radios down so only they can program them. That's a money maker for them, and will be hell on you.

Make sure the vendor includes some level of training for you. Being able to do some very basic trouble shooting of the system when it doesn't work will be helpful. Make sure that includes the portable radios, too.

Stock spares. You will go through batteries, antennas, belt clips, knobs etc. Make sure you have some spares.

Your users will be hard on the radios, so it can be a good idea to establish some accountability.

Train your users on how to use the radios. Some will balk and claim "they'll figure it out", or "I have walkie talkies at home", etc. Don't buy it. End users need to be trained on all the functions of the radios. This will prevent a lot of headaches down the road.

Make sure the end users understand that the radios have limited range. They will not work in 100% of the locations. Establish some realistic expectations for them.

Get copies of the programming files for the radios. Save them in multiple locations.

Get the vendor to explain the charger and battery characteristics. If they are smart chargers, they won't damage the battery. Some low tier chargers can over charge/damage the battery.

Make sure your end users understand that leaving the radio turned on and in the charger 24x7 is not a good idea. Some chargers will handle charging the battery just fine. Some will handle charging the battery AND operating the radio. Make sure you know. Some end users in offices will just leave the radio turned on 24x7 in the charger and never turn it off. When the need the battery to work, it may not.

Make sure end users know that the antenna is NOT a carry handle. Smack the wrists of any user who does that with a ruler.

Have a few spare radios. They will get damaged, they will break, they will get lost. You'll need some spares.

Get copies of the programming files for the radios. Save them in multiple locations. —yes, I said that before, but it's important.

Not sure how you are set up, but if you are going to have a number of channels or talk groups, make sure the radios are either set up with them all in every radio, or make sure you have some common frequencies/talk groups that can be used in a disaster.

Backup batteries on the repeaters can be a good idea. Generator capability too. Both is a good idea. Don't rely on the electric utility as your only source.

Antennas, feed line and duplexers are very important to the proper operation of the repeaters. Don't "value engineer" that out of the system. You want good antennas, good coax and good duplexers if you want the system to work properly. No "mobile duplexers".

I could go on and on, but those are some good places to start.
Most importantly, it's your radio system, don't let the vendor lock it down so they are the only ones that can control it.

 

[phadobas]

Thank you for all the valuable information you provided. To give a background, I've been in the IT of my company for over 20 years. I manage all the communications system, and I get factory certified on our systems, and then manage them in-house. I rarely call factory tech support on very special issues sometimes even those folks have to think about.
So that's what I want to do with this system too: deploy in a way that will require minimal changes after it's deployed (and I know there WILL be changes). get some training from the vendor, and then obtain every single manual I can get my hands on and go through all of them.
I'll get my CPS and programming cable. I'll get all the passwords to the system.
I'll have UPS backup and generator backup - the main purpose of this whole system is hurricane readiness. When all else fails (phone lines, internet lines and even cell service is down), we still have our radios. I know it may never happen that we get hit so hard, but at least we are prepared.
Other than that, the radios will be in day-to-day use by different departments: transport, building maintenance, hotel services and operations, things like this.
And the reason I'm on this forum now is to get the most understanding before I place the order so I can ask as much as possible from the vendor to do, and at least sound intelligent in the conversation
As for talk-groups, I have a campus with different buildings and planning on putting the maintenance crew of each buildings in a different group. That's 10 groups right there. Then transport is another, and maybe 4 more for hotel operations.
And when sht hits the fan (ie we have a hurricane), then I deploy another 10 or so groups. Plus at that time, there will be a group for management and they will have rights to override conversations to make an "all-call", etc.

 

[speedway_navigator]

Multi site connects repeaters by IP, each repeater transmits audio received from a user regardless of which site received the signal. Radios scan each site and switch to the strongest signal.
If you need coverage from inside the warehouse to your campus this would probably be what you need.

Have your vendor put a unique ID number in each radio so you can see who is transmitting, comes in handy when someone has a radio on their hip and leans against a chair arm or railing and keys the radio. A short time out timer setting might be handy if your users tend to treat the radio like a phone and tell a story instead of a short question or command.

I'm old school so I always set a button to monitor in case there is co-channel interference.

 

[phadobas]

Ok, thank you all.
I'm now trying to get my wits around two terms here:
"Scanning" - what is that?
and "Monitoring"?

Sorry if these are lame questions...

 

[mmckenna]

I'll have UPS backup and generator backup - the main purpose of this whole system is hurricane readiness. When all else fails (phone lines, internet lines and even cell service is down), we still have our radios. I know it may never happen that we get hit so hard, but at least we are prepared.

A couple of things to consider about power….

Generator fail. Transfer switches fail. Fuel gets contaminated. Starter batteries get neglected. And it always happens at the worst time.

UPS systems are good for very short backup times (Yes, I know you can get big ones). Consider that they take AC, change it to DC for the batteries, then back to AC through the inverter. That AC is fed to the repeater where it gets switched back to DC. Each step has some losses. Efficiency drops. Low efficiency means heat generation, loss of run time, wasted energy.

UPS systems are an I.T. solution to a non-IT problem. In other words, think outside the IT box on this one.
The repeaters have a DC power connection. Set up a DC power system to run your repeaters. That might mean a couple of rectifiers designed for the task. N+1, so you have some backup. Maybe even consider two separate systems so one failure won't take out both repeaters.
4 to 8 hours of battery backup is a good idea. That gives you time to bring in a portable generator or evacuate the area.

If you are going to network these guys, consider a network switch that will also run off 12 volts DC like the repeaters. Or, an inverter. As for inverters, make sure it's a "pure sine wave" model. We had issues with the Brocade network switch I used for the trunked system. It didn't like the modified sine wave that our inverter provided. I had to upgrade to a pure sine model.

As for talk-groups, I have a campus with different buildings and planning on putting the maintenance crew of each buildings in a different group. That's 10 groups right there. Then transport is another, and maybe 4 more for hotel operations.
And when sht hits the fan (ie we have a hurricane), then I deploy another 10 or so groups. Plus at that time, there will be a group for management and they will have rights to override conversations to make an "all-call", etc.

For management, make sure they practice with the radios frequently. If they don't, they'll be clueless when it matters.


Looking at the spec's on the repeaters, looks like some of them can be set up with an internal duplexer.
Avoid those if you can. The sacrifice efficiency and performance for small size. Use external duplexers if you can. That'll help with performance, and may keep you from having issues with strong nearby signals.



I'm in a similar situation as you. I work for a research university with a large residential population. I've got 400+ radios on a 5 channel trunked system. Our police department is on a separate VHF system, as is the fire department.
A well set up radio system can make life easier for the staff. Key will be to make sure it gets set up correctly. Consider that you'll be making incremental changes as you grow.
One option on our system that has saved me a lot of work is an "Over The Air Programming" setup. That lets me reprogram radios over the air without them needing to be brought into the shop. Saves a lot of money and time. See if Hytera has that as an option.

 

[speedway_navigator]

Hytera will have OTAP (over the air programming) in its i series radios. I don't have any details yet. Any radio shipped from the factory after last week is an i series but your vendor may have version 8 firmware radios in stock.

Monitoring a channel is required by the FCC if you are on a shared frequency to make sure you don't talk over someone else. In the old days this was done by going to carrier squelch mode which means you hear everything on the frequency.

New radios can be set not to key if they detect a signal (carrier). Radios will usually flash the PTT light to alert you the channel is busy. In the real world most users just hit the PTT and start talking without bothering. What is interesting is that you TX 5 MHz higher than the repeater does, I've never tested a radio to see if it detects the TX freq, monitoring is supposed to keep your repeater from transmitting while another repeater does.

Scan allows user to listen to multiple channels / talk groups. You might find this useful to see how the system is working but for each talk group they probably will not want to hear traffic from another user group.

All call is great for mass notifications. If you need to talk to all groups in one building (good idea for an evacuation due to fire alarm, gas leak, etc) versus system wide you can create a talkgroup for that site and add that talkgroup to the scan list for each group in that building. You probably want to limit the number of users who can initiate these calls.

 

[phadobas]

Ok, so my vendor will get me the needed FCC licenses for my own frequencies (will have 2 repeaters). So does it mean I'm going to be on "shared frequency"? And if so, who does the monitoring? A person, sitting by some radio? Or the repeater? Automatically? This concept is still not clear to me...

On the scanning. So you tell the radio to scan, and it will hang on your belt, and hear all conversations of the talk group it is allowed to scan? Or do you have to use your knob to switch to another talk group to "scan" or hear it? How does this work in real life?

 

[mmckenna]

All call is great for mass notifications. If you need to talk to all groups in one building (good idea for an evacuation due to fire alarm, gas leak, etc) versus system wide you can create a talkgroup for that site and add that talkgroup to the scan list for each group in that building. You probably want to limit the number of users who can initiate these calls.

Excellent point.
We have that on select radios.
Mostly our PD, our dispatch center and my own.

It can be a useful function to have.

 

[speedway_navigator]

Very few business users have exclusive use of what we in the business call part 90 freqs, for part 90 of the CFR that covers public safety and industrial business users.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-i...true&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title47/47cfrv5_02.tpl#0

Frequency coordinators try to make sure you have as few co-channel users as possible, in a heavy metro area that might be difficult.
Monitoring was done by ear before modern technology allowed radios to detect a signal and prevent transmitting IF that option is set. The FCC does not dictate how you check a channel's status.

90.403(e): “Licensees shall take reasonable precautions to avoid
causing harmful interference. This includes monitoring the transmitting
frequency for communications in progress and such other measures as may
be necessary to minimize the potential for causing interference.

I found 106 licenses between 461.100 and 461.500 Mhz in Miami Dade county. This range is roughly 14% of the spectrum available. The same freq range only shows 10 licenses where I live in Hendricks county IN.

For a co-channel user example, 4 users are on 461.150: American airlines, the school board, a Ritz Carlton and a company that looks to supply speed shot cameras for TV production at the Homestead track.

This site lets you put in a location and search for all users in a frequency range. You will be licensed in the 451-453 or 460-465 MHz range for your repeater freqs.

https://fjallfoss.fcc.gov/General_Menu_Reports/engineering_search.cfm?accessible=NO&wild_select=on

I'm assuming you will have simplex channels which are radio to radio, those come in handy if the repeater is down or if your transportation units need to have a chat while out of repeater range.

Are you going to have a control station, the technical name for a base station? If so I'd suggest programming your repeater freqs in a channel in reverse order, which means the radio can be used to talk to users if the repeater goes down for any reason.

Radios TX 5 MHz higher than they RX, if the repeater goes out no one hears anyone else. If the repeater is down you can switch your control station to the reversed freq pair and hear units calling and talk back to them. Chances are you would just make a call to let users know the repeater is down and have them switch to a simplex channel instead of relaying messages.

Feel free to ask more questions, I realize transitioning from blue orange green brown slate to RF is a big jump.

Scanning on a DMR repeater system is different than a conventional system. Your users on a repeater are on one freq, each has a unique talkgroup ID. When maintenance talks only users with that ID in their RX group for that channel will hear the traffic. Maybe each site's maintenance team leader will want to scan other sites to see what problems they might have. In that case the talkgroup ID for each site's maintenance group would be in the RX group list. No one has to have scan.

I can make screen prints of programming software (called CPS) to show how this looks if you want.

 

[phadobas]

Thanks, and yes, "blue orange green brown slate" days are going away. These days it's more like 1-2 & 3-6 (Ethernet pinout).
I've been in RF also, did a POCSAG paging system and installed a few BDA-s for cell phone service.

But 2-way radios - yeah that's new to me. Thank again for all the info here.

 

[speedway_navigator]

I had an old school tech help me make cat 5 cables one time, he didn't now about TIA586, had them all done with the 66 block scheme.