New VA. STARS/ALMR? TRS Request For Info

[W4UVV]

Virginia is installing a VHF Motorola Type II, 9600 baud, P25 in the clear with encryption capability called STARS. 2 ghz. and 6 ghz. microwave links with T1 landlines, etc. will eventually cover the state. This installation per Motorola is the first of its type in the nation. The main user will be the state police. However, other entities to include F&G, Marine Resources, and Forestry also will be users in this "seamless" system. Testing began in October, 2005 and the Richmond, Virginia,VSP Division 1 is the first entity to test and accept the system. The main system test is scheduled for February.

Various 158 and 159 mhz. repeater output frequencies were licensed with various 154 and 155 mhz. frequencies licensed as inputs to Virginia. However, actual off air monitoring has disclosed a few other 158 and 159 mhz. frequencies being used not licensed for that specific geographical area. Confusing the situation more is selected 151 and 152 mhz. repeater output frequencies recently have appeared that seem to mirror image 158-159 mhz. repeater outputs. These 151 & 152 mhz. with only a few exceptions of previous liciensing to F&G are not licensed to Va. but are being used in the STARS system. We cannot determine a reason for the presence of 151 & 152 mhz. "mirrored" repeater outputs to the 158-159 mhz. repeater outputs. One theory is a backup repeater for a possible mobile shadow area. Since they mostly are unlicensed frequencies we cannot do a latitude and longitude search.

Some of us monitoring the STARS testing have experienced much frustration in attempting to locate a control channel. Those transmissions that appear to be data channels don't appear to function as the control channels we are familar with in the 400 and 800 mhz. range. For the past 4 months many various base frequencies and offset settings have been tried in programming with no successful results so far.

The STARS P25 repeater transmissions seem to be stand alone repeaters and are easily copied on a digital receiver scanning in the conventional mode. However, since no control channel can be found so far, scanning the trunked mode produces zero results because of no control channel. Scanning in the conventional mode stops on whatever repeater activates in the scan cycle and there is no continuity tracking of the active communication relationship. There are several 152 mhz. that are 24/7 data channels but it is unknown whether or not they are STARS related. They constantly display "FM/LNK/DAT" but never "P25" when a STARS 151, 152, 158 or 159 mhz. repeater activates.

If it all sounds confusing and frustrating, it definitely has been and still is.

Having read past posts on this website about ALMR, it appears STARS possibly is related to some extent. Those of us monitoring are using Pro 96, 2096, 296D and 796D digital receivers. Previous posts here in this forum are conflicting regarding whether or not the BC796D works on ALMR. Reply Information as to what digital scanners work and those that don't would be helpful.

Thanks in advance for any replies from monitoring experience of ALMR that would assist us in programing the Va. STARS vhf TRS.

 

[Thunderbolt]

The states of Montana and Wyoming are also installing identical systems. My only guess as to the use of the 151-152 MHz frequencies, might be for the use of "Intellipeaters" that are a remote trunking site designed to cover a smaller area, or where reception has critical deficiencies, ie, inside buildings, caves, and tunnels, etc. However, they can be used for full-scale trunking along with the other frequencies if desired.

They constantly display "FM/LNK/DAT" but never "P25"

This is the normal display for MDC data, not when voice is used. Likewise, If you see "ENC" this means that its encrypted radio traffic. Moreover, it will be really interesting to see how this systems is built-out over the next 2-3 years.

73's

Ron

 

[kikito]

If it all sounds confusing and frustrating, it definitely has been and still is....

Thanks in advance for any replies from monitoring experience of ALMR that would assist us in programing the Va. STARS vhf TRS.

I know about the confusion and frustration factor, trust me. And when ALMR was first being implemented, for months we didn't even had a scanner that would function properly in this type of system (VHF 9600). Just to add to the frustration....

Our system is also considered "first of its type" too for many reasons. One of them is our input frequencies are in the 138 to 144MHz range while our outputs are in the 154.65 to 156.24MHz and all with 12.5kHz spacing.

There's another thread where I replied to similar questions about what sounded like control channels but the scanners or software wouldn't show any SysId or will track anything. This happened many times up here whenever a new site was being brought online. It would seem that for days and some of them for weeks, would have that constant data come and go in most of the frequencies assigned to the proposed new site. And every time, unexpectedly, one day the control channel will be "normalized" and it'll show SysId, etc. and everything would work fine after that.

By scanning conventionally some of the frequencies, I would hear the techs driving around and talking about signal strength and "RSSI" readings leading me to believe that it was coverage testing during those periods of "weirdness" on the new sites.

Most of the messages in this forum about the ALMR and digital are probably by me and they clearly show my confusion period :lol: .

To make a long story short, the Uniden scanners that work are the BC296D and BC796D as long as they have all the latest firmware upgrades installed (radio and card) and of course the BCD396T works fine too. You don't need to enter Base/Offset values for the Unidens to work correctly.

For GRE/RS models, the Pro-96/2096 work fine as long as you know the "weird" Offset tables that need to be enter via software into the radio. That is a "bug" and hopefully will get corrected in the next generation of their scanners since for P25 systems you don't need to enter any of that info, regardless of frequency band. The way to find those weird offset table values is by running Pro96Com software and see what Tables each particular site is using, etc. We can help you figure it out once the system starts spitting out the info and you get the data. This early in the game, that data might even change later on by the time the system is operating normally.

Anyway, having first hand experience with our system since it's "infancy", all I can advice for now is to sit back, relax, observe, take notes and be patient because during this period of bringing the system online, it can be confusing but you will gain a lot of knowledge in the process and later on will come in handy once the system is fully online.

If you got any more questions or want clarification about anything, don't hesitate to ask away!. I've learned a lot about these systems and feel I can learn much more from your own observations and situation down there.

 

[kikito]

Confusing the situation more is selected 151 and 152 mhz. repeater output frequencies recently have appeared that seem to mirror image 158-159 mhz. repeater outputs. These 151 & 152 mhz. with only a few exceptions of previous liciensing to F&G are not licensed to Va. but are being used in the STARS system. We cannot determine a reason for the presence of 151 & 152 mhz. "mirrored" repeater outputs to the 158-159 mhz. repeater outputs. One theory is a backup repeater for a possible mobile shadow area. Since they mostly are unlicensed frequencies we cannot do a latitude and longitude search.

I found a recent letter from Virginia to the FCC that might help a little in trying to figure out what are they doing frequency wise....

https://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsEntry/...tachmentKey=18090607&attachmentInd=applAttach

That attachment is related to the callsign of WQEH221:

http://wireless2.fcc.gov/UlsApp/UlsSearch/license.jsp?licKey=2780349

 

[W4UVV]

Posted Info

Thanks very much guys for your helpful information posts. We aren't the dumbest bears in the woods down here, but STARS really is being a beast to program defying our past 400 & 800 Mhz. Type II programing experiences. Today two new 151 repeater frequencies popped up being used by the STARS test team contractors. As posted scanning in the conventional mode for the P25 signals works great. The VSP let the contractors borrow 2 mobile units for testing as that is required to test the vehicle extenders which supposedly are in the 800 mhz. range. So far we have not been able to receive the 154-155 mhz. input frequencies as the test team appears to be using HTs inside the Division 1 HQ facility. Within the past few days briefly the 159.000 mhz. analog repeater for VSP Division 1 was simulcast through a couple of the 151 and 159 mhz. repeaters.

The lack of a constant control channel is the main frustration. There are a couple of 152 mhz. data channels 24/7 that appear to be Motorola Type II, but they cycle only "FM/LNK/DAT" and never "P25" when a 151 or 159 mhz. P25 transmission activates.

I had guessed that the 151 mhz. repeaters might be for shadow area reception. STARS is acting like the FBI vhf radio system in Va. The main dispatcher is in Richmond and she can key up all or selected remote transmitter sites in state. The responding mobile is received by the closest remote site and the audio is microwaved/ T1 landline fed back to Richmond.

Other guys or myself involved in our STARS VSP quest here may post to this thread requesting additional specific help info. Speaking for them I really appreciate you taking the time and effort to assist us. Thanks again.

 

[kikito]

Just as another tidbit of info, looking back at my notes and FCC temporary expired licenses from around 2002 for our ALMR system, I saw that we also had a bunch of weird frequencies used at first during the testing and build out stages.

We had frequencies in the 150, 151, 153, 158 and 159MHz before they settled on the actual bands they're using now (154.65-156.24MHz). My guess is so they wouldn't interfere with the current licensees at that time in the nearby target frequencies and also while they moved those current licensees from the frequencies they wanted and were going to end up using in the long run.

 

[W4UVV]

A little progress..maybe

The VSP now is simulcasting the two 158/159 mhz. repeater outputs for this first VSP Division installation with P25 mirror repeater outputs in the 151/152 and 158/159 mhz. ranges. We are getting a good lock on a data channel on 152.5325 mhz. when scanning in the trunked mode. However, nothing else when P25 repeater output transmissions are active in both bands. The 152.5325 mhz. transmission cycles "FM/DAT/LNK" and nothing else happens. The STARS equipment appears to be working as designed. However, no Pro96, 2026 or BC796D receives any other P25 transmissions when in the trunked scanning mode.
When scanning previously identified P25 151/152 and 158/159 mhz. STARS repeaters in the conventional mode, the reception is excellent but the transmissions do not track correctly as there is no control channel. Whatever P25 transmission pops up first in the scan cycle is what you hear.
Your comments make sense as Va. did request additional 151 mhz. frequencies after this effort began. I no longer hear the test team. VSP is using it and mobile units are having equipment replaced.
This is a 5 year installation effort for all of the VSP divisions in state. It seems to me that the control channel configuration would be good to go by now. It looks like this is it. Possibly this could be a weird P25 Motorola Type II 9600 baud variation that the RS and Uniden cannot process in the trunked scanning mode. ARC250 vhf Motorola type II wants base frequency information. We have none. I hope I'm wrong. It is what it is.

 

[kikito]

Possibly this could be a weird P25 Motorola Type II 9600 baud variation that the RS and Uniden cannot process in the trunked scanning mode. ARC250 vhf Motorola type II wants base frequency information. We have none. I hope I'm wrong. It is what it is.

According to this thread:

http://www.radioreference.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30954


Some people are succesfully using the BCD396T to track some of the sites in 'Control Channel Only' mode.

Also, have you applied the latest and greatest firmware update for your BC796D? Who knows, it might help....